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Topic: Randonee Binding Info Wanted (Read 1175 times)
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RossB
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I'm in the process of buying Randonee gear. Sometime soon, I will probably buy the bindings (assuming I can find boots that fit me). I have spent most of my adult life cross country skiing and much of that has been in the backcountry. Even though I enjoy stretching the limits of my flimsy gear, I've decided that it makes sense to get more robust gear. I will use this for touring around places like Paradise (Muir and Mazama Ridge) and Artist Point (I would like to ski Ptarmigan Ridge) as well as tour oriented places. When I go along the flats, I stride and glide (I don't like to skate ski).
So, assuming I buy Randonee boots that use the Dynafit system, what would people recommend? For the sake of argument, assume that money is no object (it is an object, but one I can easily measure). Here are some bindings I'm considering:
http://www.dynafit.com/product/bindings/low-tech-race-auto -- Really light. Can you put your foot down completely (when touring)? Not clear to me. If not, that's a deal breaker.
http://www.dynafit.com/product/bindings/low-tech-radical -- Quite light. Combination of the front end of the Speed Radical and the back end of the Low Tech. Same question applies as above (since it is the back end I'm concerned about).
http://www.dynafit.com/product/bindings/tlt-speed-superlite -- Quite light. Same weight as the Low Tech Radical.
http://www.dynafit.com/product/bindings/tlt-speed-radical -- A bit heavier, but still pretty light. Significantly cheaper (and may have other advantages, I don't know).
http://www.sportiva.com/products/ski/bindings/rt-binding -- Another really light option
There may be other models I should consider (Plum?).
Other than weight or price, I'm not sure how to compare these. I'm not a very aggressive skier, and my main interest is in touring. A spring trip to Ptarmigan ridge is a good example of why I'm going to buy this equipment (mostly gradual terrain but a few spots where I would need to make sharp turns on a fairly steep slope). As I mention, if the binding doesn't have a mode that allows my foot to be flat, than I won't buy it (even if it is really light). There may be other advantages to one binding over another as well (such as the ease with which one can switch from one type of skiing to another).
Thanks for any advice. Note: I cross posted over at nwhikers as well.
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Charlie Hagedorn
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Don't forget the TLT classic/speed. It's still for sale in europe, and theoretically over here. Primary drawback is the limited adjustment range. Elsewise, it's a simple, light, time-tested, and bomber binding.
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gregL
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The Low Tech Race and Low Tech Radical (same three-hole race heel with a regular Radical toe) have just one touring position, on top of the flipper that covers the heel pins in the picture. There isn't a true "flat" position. The Speed Superlite doesn't let your boot go flat either, but is nice because you don't have to turn the heelpiece to access touring mode and has two climbing levels (the only one of their bindings that's designed like this). This is nice because you can forget about the current problems involving the anti-rotation pin in the other Radical series bindings . . .
The base model Speed Radical lets your boot go about as flat to the ski as possible (to the heel base plate); people I know using the binding set on a lateral release value of 9 or 10 are having reasonable success using this without the anti-rotation pin. As you note, it's also relatively cheap. The ATK/La Sportiva RT also lets your boot go flat and could be a contender for your purposes - I haven't heard of any problems with it so far, but the user sample size is very small. Plum Guide is a possibility as well, I've had good luck with mine.
Keep in mind that your requirement that the boot go flat to the ski in touring mode may be related to how much cuff articulation you have in your boots - I find that higher lifter levels or not stopping to rotate my heels to "flat" position is much less annoying with my Dynafit TLT 5 boots than any previous AT boot I've owned due to cuff mobility . . .
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runningclouds
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Ross, have you considered a telemark setup?
I came from the same background. I primarily cross country skied through my childhood and teens, mostly off track, in Czechoslovakia. 3-pin classic on flimsy XC gear.
When I came to Vancouver and tried XC skiing in the Coast Mountains and North Cascades I realized it is a different game here, especially around treeline and in the alpine.
I rented different AT gear five times to test it out before committing the huge sums to buy the equipment. Somehow I just had hard time skinning up, it was really unnatural movement compared to XC. Maybe I did not give it enough time, maybe I was doing something wrong but when I rented skis with telemark setup I knew this was it in the first 100 m. I was flying!
On the downhill I often do alpine turns on the steeper parts and telemark turns on the mellower slopes. It works very well for me and I am happy with my setup. It works pretty much everywhere around here from yo-yo skiing trees, bowls or touring Baker, St. Helen's or Rainier.
I don't have any specific gear recommendation but I think you might benefit from renting an AT setup for one day and a telemark setup for another.
Have fun finding your new gear!
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Randy
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The "Speed Radical" gets my vote for what you describe -- the versions that are lighter that are more for "Randonee Racing" than for general usage. I almost bought "Speed Radicals" myself this fall -- but opted instead for the "Radical ST" -- which adds the ease (and weight) of ski brakes.
Unless you are putting in more than 10 hours a week in training / fitness workouts and have a goal of competing or doing really long tours, I don't think the weight reductions of the lighter versions make up for their decreased versatility and extra cost.
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Andrew Carey
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I agree with Randy and Greg. I considered the Low Tech last year, but the idea of walking around with my heel more elevated than normal in a Dynafit binding was not appealing. Not a concern in racing where it is either up or down; but a real concern in touring where you may be on the flats quite a while. Another related concern for me was the tendency for snow to build up, pack, and turn to ice on the shelf of the level position on the Vertical ST and FT bindings. Again, not a concern going up when you are on the 1st or 2nd lift, but a real concern in moist or sun affected snow when you are breaking trail and snow falls underfoot to compress and build up--putting you up on the ball of your foot or on your toes.
I bought the Speed Radicals because the old speeds were not to be found. The boot heel position on the Speed is actually slightly negative, which is nice, and allows a little snow build up without negative effects. The binding design without the heel shelf does not collect snow as fast as a Vertical. But it will collect snow eventually. I have mine mounted such that the adjustment screw and most of the mounting food were well under the heel piece to reduce tendency to collect snow.
The Dynafit bindings are so light that they are really insignificant contributor to weight on the foot when you are using a bc ski and boot (compared to a racing ski and boot); so I would not worry about the weight differences between the tech bindings.
The only disadvantage to the Speed is that you can not use a brake. I have 4 skis with Dynafit bindings, all were mounted without brakes. But I decided to put brakes on my Manaslus and I am glad I did. I use them in the deeper and more tricky snow. I have my Speed Radicals on Karhu Guides without brakes (brakes will also contribute to snow buildup) that I use on nordic ski patrol; I add leashes when it is icy or rough. I don't have brakes on my Verticals on my Seven Summits and Snowwolfs; I use them for spring/summer skiing and icy conditions and I use B&D leashes. The added weight of either the brakes or leashes is really insignificant unless you are racing or doing thousands of feet of vertical gain quickly.
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... want your own private skintrack? :-) better move to the yukon dude ....(B'ham Allen, 2011).
...
Andy Carey, Nisqually Park, 3500 feet below Paradise
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Chuck C
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Don't forget to consider Fritschis. I've been pretty happy with mine despite them being supposedly "heavy". It seems like most of the people with dynafits spend all day trying to get in their bindings after random pop outs, ice build ups etc. I like being able to just step in and go without the hassles. From the types of trips you listed they should be fine. Plus there's plenty of used ones available so you don't get exsanguinated paying for them.
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RossB
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Thanks everyone, I really appreciate the information. At this point, the bindings that I'm considering are the Speed Radical (which is the one I'm leaning towards) the La Sportiva and the Plum. The Plum bindings I have seen seem to be about the same weight as the Speed Radical, whereas the La Sportiva ones are significantly less. Is that correct?
If so, then I would probably get the Speed Radical or the La Sportiva. Marmot has the Speed Radical but they don't have either of the other two bindings. Then it becomes a simple choice of saving weight (and buying online) versus saving money, buying locally, and perhaps having a binding a bit easier to use. Oh, I forgot to mention that I really don't mind using a leash (rather than a ski break).
Of course, at this point, I may end up getting Telemark gear. I agree, runningclouds; one of the big misconceptions of Telemark gear is that you need to master the telemark turn for the gear to be appropriate. Since I can't telemark very well (despite being on skinny skis a really long time) I would probably make parallel turns with my Telemark gear. The main reason I've been leaning towards A. T. gear is because of the advancements made in the recent years with that gear. The TLT5 boots, for example, are supposed to be extremely comfortable. Likewise, the bindings are much lighter than the Telemark bindings. As I try on more boots, the first issue may not be significant. It is quite possible that I'll find a pair of Telemark boots that I find more comfortable than any Randonee boot.
To a certain extent, I'm jumping the gun by asking about A. T. bindings. But if I find boots of either type that I find equally comfortable, than I'll be better able to compare the weights of the bindings to see how much I'll save by going with Randonee.
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Scotsman
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Don't forget to consider Fritschis. I've been pretty happy with mine despite them being supposedly "heavy". It seems like most of the people with dynafits spend all day trying to get in their bindings after random pop outs, ice build ups etc. I like being able to just step in and go without the hassles. From the types of trips you listed they should be fine. Plus there's plenty of used ones available so you don't get exsanguinated paying for them.
I used to think this way and even defend Fritschi's on this same website......that was until I learnt how to use my Dynafits. I do not spend all day trying to get into my bindings or clearing them of ice I can assure you. 
Fristchi is HEAVY binding and not particularly a good binding because of the stack height and play/wobble in the boot/binding interface.
Especially unsuited for RossB's intended usage.
Now Barons or Dukes, don't get me started..... waiting, waiting at transitions for the person to clean the rail of ice to get back into ski mode....terrible, terrible, terrible.....shouldn't be allowed!
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RossB
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Well, I ended up buying the La Sportiva. It was available at Marmot after all. It is one elegant piece of machinery. I'll never own a Ferrari, but now I can ski on something that is the binding equivalent.
One thing to keep in mind if you do buy it is that the second riser (which is optional) can be pushed out of line quite easily. That is why the folks at Marmot don't recommend using poles to switch positions. I managed to mess it up when I attached a leash to it (and stepped in and out a few times). It is easy to realign (no damage done). The same screw that holds it in place also controls one of the DIN settings, so I can't adjust the tension on it. Anyway, I'm going to move the leash to the front of the binding (which is where I believe folks typically tie it).
Cheers,
Ross
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oftpiste
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I can attest to scotty being the quickest in and out of Dynafits I've ever seen.
I used to think this way and even defend Fritschi's on this same website......that was until I learnt how to use my Dynafits. I do not spend all day trying to get into my bindings or clearing them of ice I can assure you. Fristchi is HEAVY binding and not particularly a good binding because of the stack height and play/wobble in the boot/binding interface. Especially unsuited for RossB's intended usage. Now Barons or Dukes, don't get me started..... waiting, waiting at transitions for the person to clean the rail of ice to get back into ski mode....terrible, terrible, terrible.....shouldn't be allowed! |
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BRING BACK PNW BRIT!!!!
BRING BACK PNW BRIT!!!!
BRING BACK PNW BRIT!!!!
BRING BACK PNW BRIT!!!!
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RossB
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I can attest to scotty being the quickest in and out of Dynafits I've ever seen.
Funny you should mention that. That is one thing I'm going to have to work on. I took my new gear to Kendall on Saturday. This isn't the type of route I would normally do with this gear, but it provided a good test. I was able to ski down some slopes that I normally don't do on Kendall. The snow was pretty thick and wet, so it showed the value of the sturdier gear. However, getting in and out was pretty slow (as expected) which meant that I decided to skip it a couple of times and just used my poles (good tricep exercise, if nothing else). I was jealous of my brother, who not only made smooth telemark turns going down the steep stuff, but switched from downhill to level mode extremely quickly. I will probably never be able to switch that fast, but I'm sure I'll get better (the little mess with the ascender played a part with my troubles as well).
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Edgesport
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I used to think this way and even defend Fritschi's on this same website......that was until I learnt how to use my Dynafits. I do not spend all day trying to get into my bindings or clearing them of ice I can assure you. Fristchi is HEAVY binding and not particularly a good binding because of the stack height and play/wobble in the boot/binding interface. Especially unsuited for RossB's intended usage. Now Barons or Dukes, don't get me started..... waiting, waiting at transitions for the person to clean the rail of ice to get back into ski mode....terrible, terrible, terrible.....shouldn't be allowed!
I switched from Fritschi's and have never had a problem getting in the Dynafit..... ever! Never even heard of anyone having an issue getting in them until I started reading warnings here. Perhaps it has something to do with the nibble receptors or receptor placements on certain types of compatible boots? Got to be something because people wouldn't just make it up. I scratch my head when I people complain about it. I can tell you that the stride efficiency of the Dynafit system can not be beat! I don't care what Fritschi and the others do they are never going to match that. We had a long flat exit through gloppy snow a week ago and my buddies Duke's collected so much snow under the boots he was walking on stilts. Horrible predicament and nothing he could do about it but suffer because stopping every 50 feet is just not an option. I think runningclouds suggestion is a good one. If I had the tele background I wouldn't be running AT gear. The additional benefit of an alpine turn with the Tele setup just makes sense. Good luck!
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"Whether you think you can, or think you can't, your right"
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Web
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If you've got 'quick step fittings' you should be able to get into the toe by moving the boot forward before stepping down. The 'power towers' on the radicals are intended to do the same thing for boots with regular tech inserts.
Without those technologies I think you're stuck walking the toe pins in one at a time in a roll motion or indexing your boot by placing the heel first.
For me the efficiency of the low weight and comfortable stride while touring, as well as a more solid connection to the ski, is worth minor fiddling at the trailhead.
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Scotsman
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I can attest to scotty being the quickest in and out of Dynafits I've ever seen.
Thank you for that recognition of my dynafit skills ....it's a fact ..I am very very fast and I'm not going to pretend I have false modesty in this regard....I can step into my dynafits at the top of the gondi quicker than most of the people in Alpine binders....i just can't understand why people find them fiddly.
It just takes practice.
Now if i could only learn to ski.
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Chief Etiquette Officer of TAY and TAY's #1 Poster
Poet Laureate of TAY.
Chairman and Founder of FOTAY( Friends of TAY)
Moderator of the moderators.
"Most Brilliant Move" of the 11/12 ski season
" Knows what he is talking about"
Expert Typist.
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blackdog102395
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I am a recent convert and full on Kool-Aid drinker of the Dynafits. The only time I have trouble stepping in is if there is snow build up under the springs and I'm feeling too lazy to clear it, but the same could be said about the heel of my Freerides. For my needs, the Dynafit is superior in every regard. I expected to notice the difference on the up hill, but the downhill performance was wholly unexpected. The downhill performance of my TLT Speeds blow my Freerides out of the water: No slop and no annoying bar. I'll never go back!
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