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Topic: Help me choose a new waxless backcountry ski (Read 4426 times)
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RossB
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Posts: 75
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Thanks for the explanation Steve and David. I now understand the general principals, and they make a lot more sense to me. I appreciate the details, too, about the specific skis. This is definitely information that is hard to gather by just looking at the ski or reading the description.
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Andrew Carey
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... As I mentioned in my prior post, the Guide/Annum I tried was very soft, a real wet noodle. ...
Big Steve, I'm wondering what length Guide you skied. I'm 230 lbs and I ski the 195 cm and wouldn't describe it as a wet noodle compared with my Fishcher Outtabounds, Salomon X-Adv 88 (supposed to be the Rebound, but my 190s have the strongest double camber of any waxless I've skied, and the poorest metal edge), Karhu Catamounts (a weird flex) , or Black Diamond Valmontes (soft, single camber, altho advertised as 1.5 camber)--I get better kick-and-glide (exc. for the X-Adv), climbing, and turning with the Guide (because of my weight, I almost always use the longest ski in the model; on true XC skis, I use the paper under the foot test to choose lenght). They are noodly compared with my Madshus Voss (which I used for groomed trails and some off piste on the Methow trail system). I've used them on fairly high speed downhill runs on the MTTA (roughly and occasionally groomed logging roads) and they hold an edge well and turn surely but I found them not to turn that well in deeper backcountry snows (length + flex?)--especially compared to my real bc skis (Volkl Snowwolf and Dynafit 7 Summits and Manaslus).
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... want your own private skintrack? :-) better move to the yukon dude ....(B'ham Allen, 2011).
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Andy Carey, Nisqually Park, 3500 feet below Paradise
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pin!head
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Looking at what your doing. Volie Vector BC. Final answer.
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mtnbbud
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Any suggestions on where to buy? I live in Salem Oregon so I was thinking Bergs Ski Shop in Eugene, Oregon Mountain Community in Portland, or Mountain Shop in Portland. I guess I could wait until my next trip to Bend also. I'm at 200lbs plus more with a pack so I'd need the longest length I'd expect.
I hear REI has a great return policy. Will they order skis they don't typically carry?
Thank again for all the advice. I'm still undecided! I'm thinking with the T4 boots it might be best to go with the Rossignol 110's or the Fischer 112's. If my boots and Voile bindings could drive the Vectors, those look pretty sweet.
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« Last Edit: 02/26/12, 10:31 PM by mtnbbud »
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Andrew Carey
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I'm not a big fan of REI (I am a member); I've purchased skis from OMC in Portland, PineMountainSports in Bend, AlpineExperience in Olympia, MountainGear in Spokane, Marmot in Bellevue, Backcountry.com (& outlet), Bentgate.com, Telemarkpyrenees.com ... all provided good service and decent prices; I like to support local shops vs. chains/internet only and will pay a premium to do so to have service and advice available locally; but sometimes I have to go on line to get exactly what I want or something less than MSRP.
I've also purchased gear at the TAY sponsor, ProGuideService, they have a winter sale on now; but I don't recall seeing any waxless skis in there the last time I was in the shop.
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« Last Edit: 02/27/12, 10:43 AM by Andrew Carey »
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... want your own private skintrack? :-) better move to the yukon dude ....(B'ham Allen, 2011).
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Andy Carey, Nisqually Park, 3500 feet below Paradise
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mtnbbud
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I'm not a big fan of REI (I am a member); I've purchased skis from OMC in Portland, PineMountainSports in Bend, AlpineExperience in Olympia, MountainGear in Spokane, Marmot in Bellevue, Backcountry.com (& outlet), Bentgate.com, Telemarkpyrenees.com ... all provided good service and decent prices; I like to support local shops vs. chains/internet only and will pay a premium to do so to have service and advice available locally; but sometimes I have to go on line to get exactly what I want or something less than MSRP.
I've also purchased gear at the TAY sponsor, ProGuideService, they have a winter sale on now; but I don't recall seeing any waxless skis in there the last time I was in the shop.
Thanks Andrew,
I agree with your assessment of REI - Although it was 8 years ago when I went shopping for skis there. Those shops you mentioned all have knowledgeable staff who know their stuff - ski backcountry or backcountry telemark.
I wasn't able to see what PineMountainSports has in stock. It looks like my choice of ski may determine where I buy them. If I can't find what I want in stock I just might have to buy online.
Thanks again everyone for your advice! 
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RossB
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Worth Noting: The Rossignol website has a different set of measurements for the sidecut of the BC 125 than does the ski itself. The website says 123-95-120. On the ski, it says 125-90-115. I grabbed the ruler and measured it. Sure enough, as close as my tools can determine, the ski is correct. So, just to be clear:
BC 125 sidecut = 125-90-115
Oh, and they are on sale at Marmot.
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Rusty Knees
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Posts: 704
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Sounds to me like Andy could sell you a pair or 6. Andy, I think you should open up your own "local shop". A good partnership might be with Joedabaker, eh?
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The best part of summer skiing is napping on a warm rock.
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Andrew Carey
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Sounds to me like Andy could sell you a pair or 6. Andy, I think you should open up your own "local shop". A good partnership might be with Joedabaker, eh?
FRIDAY SPECIALS:
XC for sale right now: 190 Fischer Outtabounds with 3 pins $125; 189 cm Salomon X-Adv 89 with 3-pin cable (can also use hardwires), $100; short (can't remember but can check) women's Karhu Catamounts with Rainey Superloops, $75; all skis in good condition, minor scratches and scuffs, minor rock lines on bases; US 11 brown t-3s with worn liners $50; US 11 black t-3s with good liners $75; also 100-lb-WOMEN'S tele gear, Atomic Tourcarve Alpins with some sort of modern cable bindings $100; and AT Gear: US11/MP29 Dynafit Zzero3 Pbax, non thermo liners, in great shape, use just a few times, $225; soon: either 178 Seven Summits with Comforts or 184 Volkl Snowwolfs with Verticals.
and the much resisted piece de resistance: Voile Switchbacks, Standard/large size, used once, special prices $165 + shipping.
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... want your own private skintrack? :-) better move to the yukon dude ....(B'ham Allen, 2011).
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Andy Carey, Nisqually Park, 3500 feet below Paradise
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mtnbbud
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I was torn between the Rossignol 110's and the Fischer 112's.
Bergs Ski Shop in Eugene was out of my length in the Fischers, so I started looking online and stumbled onto Onion River Sports out of Vermont. I was impressed with the extent of information and help offered through their website. I got a quick response to my inquiry about a comparison of the two skis and decided to go with the Fischers. I went to their website and the price of the Fischers had just dropped to $206 and free shipping too! - I just saved $75+!
According to UPS, my skis have made it from Vermont to Spokane. I should be getting them on my doorstep very soon !
I'm almost tempted to replace my old Voile 3-Pin Cables with Switchbacks - I guess I'll decide when I take them down to Bergs for the binding mounting. I'd expect they'll be able to tell me if my 8 year old bindings are in good enough shape to reuse. (I might needing to contact Andrew about those Switchbacks.  )
Thanks again for all of your advise - I sure feel a lot better about making my choice after hearing all of your opinions!
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Andrew Carey
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... Onion River Sports out of Vermont. I was impressed with the extent of information and help offered through their website. I got a quick r...
I'm almost tempted to replace my old Voile 3-Pin Cables with Switchbacks - ...
ORS is good and has good prices.
3-pin cables vs Switchbacks: I just bought new skis from ORS and had 3-pin cables put on them because I do not plan to use them in deep snow or with a plastic boot--Madshus Epochs and Fischer BXC 675, mostly for groomed, semi-groomed, and corn snow on logging roads and trails--and the cables will stay in the pack unless I run into some tough conditions.
For XC deep snow and trail breaking (and ice and crust--in other words, most winter conditions on ungroomed snow on trails and logging roads) I use my Karhu Guides with Dynafit Speed Radical bindings and TLT5 boot because a wider ski with a free pivot is the sine qua non for trail breaking in deep snow (see the Dostie article mentioned above); if I hadn't made a big switch to AT I would have put Switchbacks on the Guides because that free pivot is so helpful and used them with my blue 3-buckle T-2s because they actually flexed easier, were lighter, and more supportive than my T-3s . A standard 3-pin will drive the ski into the snow; the free pivot allows the ski to rise above the snow; so you don't have to lift your ski up to place it on top of the snow, pull your ski up through the snow, or collect so much snow on top of the ski. So if you plan to break trail, get the switchbacks; they will also give you much more power on the way down and if you have a plastic boot you will be able to easily use any turn style (parallel, tele, stem Christie, etc).
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... want your own private skintrack? :-) better move to the yukon dude ....(B'ham Allen, 2011).
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Andy Carey, Nisqually Park, 3500 feet below Paradise
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davidG
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... According to UPS, my skis have made it from Vermont to Spokane. I should be getting them on my doorstep very soon ! I'm almost tempted to replace my old Voile 3-Pin Cables with Switchbacks - I guess I'll decide when I take them down to Bergs for the binding mounting. I'd expect they'll be able to tell me if my 8 year old bindings are in good enough shape to reuse. (I might needing to contact Andrew about those Switchbacks. ) ...
besides being a smokin deal, Andy needs that money for his meds. get the damn bindings. even if you don't put them on these skis, it will be the perfect binding for your next event, and his advise to date alone is worth the price..
look, there is a difference between a three pin with cable or hardwire and a binding like the Switchback ~ with the Switchback you'll always have the heel throw attached - there is no pin clamp ~ it will feel different on the up - quite free and mobile - functional but not prime for kick and glide, like a three pin (where the effective pivot is further back).... ~ yet, on the down, you would praise Allahs' second coming for your choice to help andy with his Part B. 
if you stay with three pins , you can have a setup that keeps you close to your nordic roots but gives you better than you had on the down ~ if you mount the switchbacks, you'll soon become a power user, need new friends, and will search info for how many times you can cook Intuition liners for your new eco T2's. just another choice, that's all..
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"Maybe we should ban hikers from anywhere that there is a potential threat to surface water?" [courtesy Newtrout, 2011]
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mtnbbud
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Posts: 21
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Extremely convincing argument David!
I've been lusting after changing over to the Switchbacks ever since I learned of them. You are right about Andrew's advise.
My wife has been a stay-at -home mom since our four year old was born so I'm trying to be good about the budget. I'm certainly torn between what I want to do and what would be prudent. You're right about the price Andrew is offering - definitely a smokin' deal!
I might have to start buttering up the wife.
Will the Switchbacks work with the Voile release kit?
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« Last Edit: 03/11/12, 11:24 AM by mtnbbud »
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Andrew Carey
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...
Will the Switchbacks work with the Voile release kit?
Voile says the Switchback is not compatible with the release kit. Note also that it appears Voile has discontinued its releasable bindings/kit--probably because the Switchbacks are their go-to tele bindings now and few XC skiers mount their 3-pin bindings on the release kit (kind of ruins the set up, adding weight and height).
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... want your own private skintrack? :-) better move to the yukon dude ....(B'ham Allen, 2011).
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Andy Carey, Nisqually Park, 3500 feet below Paradise
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mtnbbud
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Voile says the Switchback is not compatible with the release kit. Note also that it appears Voile has discontinued its releasable bindings/kit--probably because the Switchbacks are their go-to tele bindings now and few XC skiers mount their 3-pin bindings on the release kit (kind of ruins the set up, adding weight and height).
Bummer!
I broke my leg a little over three years ago. I got a blood clot in my leg as a result of the surgery. I had a hard time convincing the docs that something was wrong. By the time they checked, the clot had spread from my ankle to my upper thigh. I had to spend 6 months on coumadin and live with the fear I could get a pulmonary embolism at any moment. I decided then to outfit all my skis with releasable bindings.
The Switchbacks are a better system, but I got to have the releasables.
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patonbike
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Bummer!
I broke my leg a little over three years ago. I got a blood clot in my leg as a result of the surgery. I had a hard time convincing the docs that something was wrong. By the time they checked, the clot had spread from my ankle to my upper thigh. I had to spend 6 months on coumadin and live with the fear I could get a pulmonary embolism at any moment. I decided then to outfit all my skis with releasable bindings.
The Switchbacks are a better system, but I got to have the releasables.
So what did you end up with?
I am pondering BC125 with Voile X2 switchback (supposedly heavier duty... more boot toe wrap and heavier spring than standard switchback) with T4 boot (already have so don't want to change for a few years).
I know Andy recommended the A.T. boots and bindings, but it's out of the budget for now.
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davidG
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So what did you end up with?
I am pondering BC125 with Voile X2 switchback (supposedly heavier duty... more boot toe wrap and heavier spring than standard switchback) with T4 boot (already have so don't want to change for a few years).
I know Andy recommended the A.T. boots and bindings, but it's out of the budget for now.
Yes, lets hear, and also about the test drive..
FWIW, patonbike, I put the X2 on my Vector BCs and don't like them (the binding). I feel the rearward positioning of the hardwire has created a very noticeable hingepoint, especially on a soft shoe like the T4 (Excursion in my case). Less noticeable with the T1 but still not smooth. I'm about to replace the spring cartridges with the red ones from the standard Switchback, but I still think the old standard is a better bet, especially with a softer shoe.
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"Maybe we should ban hikers from anywhere that there is a potential threat to surface water?" [courtesy Newtrout, 2011]
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mtnbbud
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Thanks for asking David and Patonbike. I sure appreciated all the help I got from all of you TAY'ers who gave me advice. I'm certainly haven't had much experience in the backcountry downhill department, but definitely would like to do more as my skills improve.
I was down in Klamath Falls visiting the in laws and got the opportunity to try out the Fischers up at Crater Lake. The weather had been fairly harsh while I was there, so I put off going until the last possible day. I ended driving up in near whiteout conditions. The road to the rim was closed due to drifting snow, so I parked down on the highway and skied the PCT.
Conditions were fantastic down below with 8-12" of fresh snow. (The wind seemed to be limited to the East side and the rim.) I noticed right away the increased flotation of the 112's compared to my old Fischer Outtabounds. Breaking trail was much less effort - a fantastic improvement over the skinnier skis. I was also impressed by the traction afforded by the patterned base. I was able to directly climb slopes that would have had me herringboning or side stepping with the Outtabounds. It was an impressive improvement over my old skis, yet I didn't notice any increased drag from the longer kick pattern.
I didn't really get the opportunity to do many turns. My plan was to ski north to Dutton Creek and then up to the rim. When I got to Dutton Creek, the water had cut a fairly wide gap across the snow and I didn't find any easy places to cross. I decided to wander a bit and then head back.
The skis felt very stable on the few hills I was on, but they were short hills - 3 turns maybe. It'd be hard for me to say how well they turn, but they felt much more substantial than what I was using before. I didn't notice any issues from the camber - they flattened out nicely and felt solid.
I'm happy I bought the Fischers, they're going to be great touring skis. I'm hoping I can get out next weekend and find a good area to practice some turns.
Thanks again for all of your great advice TAYer's!
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Dostie
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Am finding that just about any waxless metal-edged ski, as long as it is a widebody like the Karhu Guide - or wider, is a darn good ski to have in the quiver, regardless of brand or model.
As with any ski, matching it with the right boot and binding is important too. With these wider skis I like to at least have a pair of Excursions or T2s underfoot. Actually, I'd rather use a T3, but they don't make them anymore and those who have 'em are probably holding on to 'em.
Paired with that I'm rather partial to the Switchback. These fatter boards with plastic teleboots don't require more than a 3-pin binding, but I just love how the Switchback improves turning and touring performance over a 3-pin, so why not?
Others mentioned some of these, but I didn't see a link my review of Voile's Vector BC. It's here.
And here's the link to a review of Fischer's S-Bound 112.
And an appropriate boot, Fischer's BCX 875.
If I had a more in-depth review of the Karhu Guide/Madshus Annum I'd point you there. I will say that there is little discernable difference between the Annum and the S-Bound 112. The S-Bound has a little better glide, thanks to more camber. And I suppose the Guide turns a bit easier for the same reason. But these are not dramatic differences.
There is a noticeable difference between these and the Vector BC. The Vector floats better, and is more enjoyable when breaking trail in deep snow. It also climbs better. Does it turn better? Better includes the feel of the turn so I'll defer and say it isn't necessarily a better turning ski, but it does turn easier and faster.
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RossB
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I agree -- the new fat fish scaled skis are great. I skied Muir* yesterday with my brother. He skied with Rossignol 125's on Telemark gear, while I skied Alpina Lite Terrain's on NNN BC boots. My boots are somewhat floppy, but I have foot issues, so its the firmest I've found so far (that doesn't hurt my feet). I turn fairly well with them, but I can't go too fast or I get high speed wobbles. So anyway, that had me searching for, and finding, the easiest way down. Often that is the most fun anyway, but the main thing is, it often ends in a low spot. No problem with the fish scales. Just glide right back up again. I know I could try and maintain my speed better, or skate, but why bother? After skiing down, down, down, it is kind of refreshing to mix it up and kick and glide my way back up a little section. We managed to find good snow in Pebble Creek, as well as some fresh snow east of the main route. Even when the fish scales aren't needed, it is nice to know that you have them. In other words, I could take a route that maybe put me a bit too low, knowing that at worse, I just did a little kick and glide to back on track.
* We didn't actually make it to Muir, but went most of the way.
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mtnbbud
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As with any ski, matching it with the right boot and binding is important too. With these wider skis I like to at least have a pair of Excursions or T2s underfoot. Actually, I'd rather use a T3, but they don't make them anymore and those who have 'em are probably holding on to 'em.
These fatter boards with plastic teleboots don't require more than a 3-pin binding, but I just love how the Switchback improves turning and touring performance over a 3-pin, so why not?
There is a noticeable difference between these and the Vector BC. The Vector floats better, and is more enjoyable when breaking trail in deep snow. It also climbs better. Does it turn better? Better includes the feel of the turn so I'll defer and say it isn't necessarily a better turning ski, but it does turn easier and faster.
Agreed the boot and binding system make a difference. My boots are older T4's. Looking at the newer T4's, I'd say mine are taller and stiffer - especially due the the length of the liner and "Power Strap"
I noticed there's a bit of play in my three-pin bindings. I'm not sure if this is due to wear and tear or the way they're made. I found some old Riva bindings with a Voile Releasable kit at a thrift shop and mounted those on my Outtabounds. There's no play at all in the Riva Bindings. I'm beginning to think I should replace my three pins. I have some G3 Targa's on a set of skis I haven't used in awhile. I could mount those on my Voile releasable kit.
After taking my Fischer 112's out a few more times, I'd say they do seem to take some time to turn. I'd expect the Vector does turn faster. I'll have to get in more practice before I'll really know what the Fischers can and can't do well.
I'm not sure about the Vectors climbing better. Compared to my older Outtabounds, the 112's climb fantastic. I can't say they climb as well the Vectors, but they're a huge improvement over the old design.
I'm sure the Vectors are a better ski - I hope to someday have a bit more money at my disposal so I can find out for myself.
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