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Turns All Year Trip Reports (1) Viewing these pages constitutes your acceptance of the Terms of Use. (2) Disclaimer: the accuracy of information here is unknown, use at your own risk. (3) Trip Report monthly boards: only actual trip report starts a new thread. (4) Keep it civil and constructive - that is the norm here. |
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Topic: The "Bride" has been voilated (Read 12917 times)
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freeskiguy
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More pics of newly discovered landing.
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ski_photomatt
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Whoa, that's interesting. A few immediate questions come to mind:
I wonder how many other LZ's were also cut that have yet to be discovered?
Did the heli company disclose this additional LZ to the Forest service during the discussion of the other unauthorized LZ? They must have known about it at that time. If they did not, it's even worse in my eyes.
As long as we are on the subject of the heli company, does anyone know the policy around the removal of their temporary landing stakes in the spring? I've seen the wooden stakes with red/orange flagging in at least a half dozen places after the road opens, apparently abandoned. I always thought it was lame they left them after their flying season ended.
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Lowell_Skoog
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It seems to me that a pattern of activity has developed in the Washington Pass area in which locals (I presume they are locals) are taking it upon themselves to make permanent physical changes to the mountain environment.
I noticed it for the first time in 2004 during a climb just east of the pass. My partner and I found lots of branches cut on the approach and on the route. There were also fixed ropes hanging on a couple of bluffy sections on the approach. The next day we climbed a route SE of the pass and found some branches cut on that route as well.
A few weeks ago I climbed the south arete of South Early Winters Spire and found a bolt on the "Gable Pitch" and two big bolts at the rappel station above the first pitch. There is a perfectly good tree at the top of the first pitch that was previously used for that rappel. Since people have been climbing this route since 1942, it's not clear to me that these permanent additions were really necessary.
Now we learn that at least two new helicopter LZs have recently been cut without authorization near Silverstar Mountain.
I'm a busy family guy and I haven't been getting out that much in the Washington Pass area in the past few years. Yet I have noticed these impacts. My guess is that there are more I don't know about. It this pattern of activity okay?
I think it is good to shine some light on these developments and discuss what our proper relationship should be to the lands we enjoy in the Washington Pass area.
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« Last Edit: 09/15/12, 09:54 PM by Lowell_Skoog »
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kurthicks
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Lowell - The bolt on the whale back/gable pitch has been there for years. The bolted station for the lowest rappel replaced the original rappel tree that died after years of climber abuse. The other tree you mention would have also died eventually if the rappel station was not added. Which is worse, continuing to kill trees or keep them alive?
All of the fixed lines have been there for years as well.
edit: Just to clarify, I have not been involved with the placement of these bolts or fixed lines.
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« Last Edit: 09/16/12, 12:53 PM by kurthicks »
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Lowell_Skoog
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Lowell - The bolt on the whale back/gable pitch has been there for years. The bolted station for the lowest rappel replaced the original rappel tree that died after years of climber abuse. The other tree you mention would have also died eventually if the rappel station was not added. Which is worse, continuing to kill trees or keep them alive?
All of the fixed lines have been there for years as well.
Thanks for the information, Kurt.
I agree that some actions may be warranted. For example, I think it would be a good thing to actually build a proper trail into Spire Basin to replace the braided climber trails that have developed there over the past few decades. It has really gotten to be a mess. But I don't have any expertise in trail development, so I'm not going to make any specific recommendations. That would have to be a Forest Service approved project.
The fixed ropes that I mentioned were on the approach to Spontaneity Arete, which was a pretty new route in 2004. The ropes and the extensive limb cutting made the route seem intrusive and contrived. I understand how it might be reasonable to place a bolt anchor to protect a tree, but is it appropriate to cut trees to build new routes? In the mountains, that seems like a line we shouldn't cross.
You mention that some of these changes have been in place for several years. I don't think that alters the point I was raising . (My experience in the Washington Pass area goes back to the 1970s.) My sense is that people have become less inhibited about making changes up there. Some of these changes are probably for the better. But having established a pattern of making beneficial changes, it may become easier to slip into making changes that cannot be so easily justified. The unauthorized helicopter LZ's are a prime example, and the reason for this discussion.
Is there a slippery slope? How do we keep from falling into it?
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« Last Edit: 09/16/12, 10:52 AM by Lowell_Skoog »
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garyabrill
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All of these actions constitute a violation of long standing wilderness values that have been part of the heritage of the North Cascades.
I would think that the Forest Service should consider removing the helicopter company's license to land in any of these areas, and as penalty, certain other surrounding landing sites as well. The Forest Service needs to show that they mean business.
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niko
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All of these actions constitute a violation of long standing wilderness values that have been part of the heritage of the North Cascades. Wilderness values are one thing; wilderness regulation and enforcement, another. The unintended consequences of prohibition zealotry are well-known: many will ignore the law, especially those who can afford to violate it.
If the vast terrain of the Cascades were made a little bit more hospitable to Swiss style hut-to-hut touring, there would be fewer surreptitious LZs and other violations of that sort. N
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kurthicks
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It is worth pointing out that the areas in question do not lie within designated Wilderness. Relatively untrammeled, sure, but Wilderness it is not.
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garyabrill
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"defacto wilderness". There is a lot of difference between Colorado, southern BC, or pray tell, Europe and the Cascades. There are many of us who like it that way. There is a bit more of a spirit of adventure.
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Scotsman
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Interesting and disturbing. Thanks Chris for making this known. However, before jumping into Brill's lynch mob and "deep thoughts from Skoog" mode, I'd like to hear all the facts from NCH and the FS before reaching a conclusion.
Jeff Ward and Paul Butler have been very quite about this whole scenario since 21 cuts was discovered. I for one wish they would engage the community and talk openly about the situation. They used TAY to post a denial of any cutting and accuse Freeskiguy of a vendetta and that appears to have been an outright deception.
Apart from a few zealots, a lot of us are supportive of having a heli operation at WA pass and would hate to see it threatened .
I for one would encourage NCH to engage( even if only to offer an apology) rather than the lock down mode they are in.
As stated above, some tree cutting for safety is allowed and maybe that interpretation is where the problem lies....although it does appear excessive to me..... anyway, NCH, please explain yourselves. Your silence is not good PR.
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Chief Etiquette Officer of TAY and TAY's #1 Poster Poet Laureate of TAY. Chairman and Founder of FOTAY( Friends of TAY) Moderator of the moderators. "Most Brilliant Move" of the 11/12 ski season " Knows what he is talking about" Expert Typist.
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Lowell_Skoog
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Apart from a few zealots, a lot of us are supportive of having a heli operation at WA pass and would hate to see it threatened . I support heli-skiing in the Washington Pass area when it abides by the rules.
As stated above, some tree cutting for safety is allowed and maybe that interpretation is where the problem lies....although it does appear excessive to me..... Cutting for safety on an established LZ is allowed, but it's not allowed at sites that haven't been designated as LZ's. Maybe NCHS interpreted their designated LZ to include the entire ridge. It sounds like this interpretation has been struck down by the Forest Service and they'll need to stick to the GPS coordinates that have been designated.
I notice that the Methow Valley News article previously linked is no longer available. Is that normal with MV News? Here's the old link:
http://www.methowvalleynews.com/story.php?id=8527
As I recall, the article said there would be a fine. I think it's equally important that NCHS should not be allowed to use the LZs that were cut without authorization. Allowing these LZs to be used would send the wrong message.
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« Last Edit: 09/17/12, 09:26 PM by Lowell_Skoog »
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ski_photomatt
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Here's Google's cached version of the Methow Valley News article:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:www.methowvalleynews.com/story.php%3Fid%3D8527
Since this too will likely go stale over time, I included the full story below. There isn't any mention about not being able to use the new landing zone.
Heli-skiing company cited for cutting trees in National Forest
By Marcy Stamper The U.S. Forest Service has issued a notice of non-compliance to a Mazama heli-skiing company for cutting two dozen trees on a high ridge to create an unauthorized helicopter landing zone.
The Forest Service received a call from a backcountry skier at the end of February describing the cutting of at least 21 trees on a ridge between Varden and Silverstar creeks, east of the Cascade crest, according to the notice of non-compliance, which was issued by the Forest Service to North Cascade Heli-Skiing on March 30.
A notice of non-compliance is essentially a warning, advising the permittee that if the action occurs again, the permit could be canceled or restricted, according to Jennifer Zbyszewski, recreation program manager for the Methow Valley Ranger District.
Notices of non-compliance are “infrequent, but not uncommon,” issued for any action that violates the terms and conditions of a permit, regardless of the severity, she said.
“This is a serious non-compliance issue for North Cascade Heli to cut that landing in – it is different than a packer taking an oversized party,” said Zbyszewski. “It’s not like those trees are going to grow back next year.”
Zbyszewski said she had had a very frank discussion with North Cascade Heli-Skiing co-owners Paul Butler and Ken Brooks after the incident, and that they understand that it was not acceptable to cut the trees and create a new landing site.
Butler would not comment on the situation except to say, “We are working with the Forest Service to better understand what we are allowed to do to ensure our guests’ safety.”
Laurie Dowie, special uses administrator for minerals and wilderness for the Methow Valley Ranger District, hiked to the site on Friday (Aug. 24) to evaluate the damage and found that 21 live trees – 15 whitebark pine, five subalpine larch, and one subalpine fir – and three snags had been cut.
The trees, 2 to 11 inches in diameter, were sawed off 4 to 6 feet above the ground and some (particularly the smaller ones) still have branches that could regenerate, said Dowie. Given the slow rate of growth at that elevation (about 6,800 feet), she concluded that the larger trees are “pretty old.”
Documents about the incident obtained from the Forest Service by a member of the public through the Freedom of Information Act and provided to the Methow Valley News include correspondence between Dowie and Butler. In an email to Dowie on April 11, Butler wrote, “The top landing located there has historically been very tight for the helicopter. This season, with a pilot who hadn’t flown with us before, we decided to limb some trees and branches to make the existing landing safer. ... The trimming occurred on two separate days between 2/18 – 2/20 ... The cutting was done by owners Ken Brooks and Paul Butler, along with the pilot, Scott Murray.”
The Forest Service is working with North Cascade Heli to be more specific about what is permissible in terms of trimming vegetation, said Zbyszewski. The company is permitted to trim trees or branches to keep the landing sites safe, but they are not authorized to create a new landing or to enlarge an existing one, she said. The new landing is about one-quarter mile from the old one, along the same ridge, said Dowie.
“We were clearly mistaken in doing this, and should have sought permission, or better yet, perhaps given up on the run altogether,” wrote Butler in the email. “I hope this unauthorized removal of vegetation, in deference to safety, is seen as an aberration, and that North Cascade Heli is trusted as a good steward of this public land.”
Zbyszewski said the helicopter pilot had previously worked in areas where different rules apply and she understood he was trying to find a safer spot.
“I felt confident [after meeting with the owners] that the pilot who did the cutting wasn’t doing a willful noncompliance act,” she said. She said she stressed to Butler and Brooks that they must clearly communicate to employees what is and is not permissible.
Calculating compensation The value of the damage will be assessed based on the size and species of trees, and North Cascade Heli will be required to compensate the Forest Service for the loss, said Zbyszewski. It is not clear how the value will be calculated – it could be based on the cost of replanting or re-seeding the area, including staff time, said Zbyszewski. Because these species are not usually used for timber, assigning a value is not straightforward, she said.
Dowie said it is difficult to imagine digging a hole on the ridge to plant a tree and that most trees seemed to have taken hold by seeding. “It’s really rocky ground – just a rock point,” she said. The agency will consult with staff botanists and other specialists to determine the amount of restitution. The meeting has not been set but could occur within the week, said Dowie.
The Forest Service first learned about the damage from several backcountry skiers, who documented and photographed the cut trees in deep snow last winter. The skiers also posted accounts and photos of the damage on an online discussion site frequented by backcountry skiers. Some of their exchanges mentioned concerns about avalanche risks if skiers cannot coordinate their ski runs with others in the area.
The backcountry skiers typically get to their ski runs by traveling on the North Cascades Highway by snowmobile and then using climbing skins on their skis to ascend to the runs.
A 30-year history North Cascade Heli has a permit and an operating plan with the Forest Service that identify all authorized landing sites and ski routes, indicated by dots and lines drawn on a map. Forest Service administrators are in the process of assigning more precise GPS coordinates to the landing sites, said Dowie. There are close to 150 drop-off and pick-up sites, according to the map.
The permit specifies that “any new ski runs, drop points, or pick-up points must be approved in the annual operation plan after review by the District wildlife biologist and recreation specialist to assess potential impacts to grizzly bear denning habitat, northern spotted owls, wolverines, and other winter recreationists.”
While the permit area encompasses almost 300,000 acres, the company is limited in terms of where it can land and ski, said Zbyszewski. Their operating plan allows 1,050 skier days between Dec. 1 and April 30, use of a wilderness yurt and hut, and filming of skiers. It also specifies fueling sites and the location of remote fuel caches, among other details.
The company is allowed a maximum of 25 skiers per day, including guides (typically four skiers per guide). The plan notes that North Cascades Heli will make efforts to avoid conflicts with other users, to the extent possible, while maintaining safe skiing conditions.
The first special-use permit for helicopter-assisted skiing in the Methow Valley Ranger District was issued in 1982, although a succession of businesses has operated under the permits. North Cascade Heli took over the business in 1988 and has been under permit every year since then, according to an environmental analysis done by the Forest Service in 2002. Butler and Brooks bought the company in 2005.
While the permit had been in existence for years, the Forest Service had not conducted a proper environmental analysis, so they used the 2001 permit-renewal process to study the impacts of several alternatives and to invite public comment, said Zbyszewski. The review also led to inclusion of more specific terms in the permit, such as the number of user days and helicopters.
Zbyszewski said the review was “contentious” and the permit was appealed by backcountry skiers and environmental organizations in 2001 and 2002. The environmental groups also challenged the agency’s review in a lawsuit in 2004, but the Forest Service’s analysis and decisions were upheld in court, said Zbyszewski.
Under the terms of their permit, North Cascade Heli pays the Forest Service 3 percent of its annual gross receipts, which ranged from $10,500 to $14,000 over the past several years, said Dowie.
The operating plan is up for renewal this year and the Forest Service is currently reviewing a draft submitted by the company. The permit expires in 2016.
Photo courtesy of U.S. Forest Service: These subalpine larch were among the 21 trees cut to create an unauthorized helicopter landing spot.
Aug. 29, 2102
Date: 08-29-2012 | Volume: 110 | Issue: 16
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JibberD
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freeskiguy, thanks for sharing this.
If I am reading this right, the Forest Service confirmed your allegations that the heli ski company made unauthorized cuts at the site you call "21 cuts" and is taking enforcement action.
Is the same heli ski company being associated with the "18 cuts" area?
In any case, I support the Forest Serivce in protecting public lands that are managed for the good of all citizens. In the "21 cuts" situation, it has to be a tough job for them, especially when the violaters are productive members of their communities who pay taxes, fees, provide jobs and other economic benefits to the area.
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-Doug O
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Scotsman
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I support heli-skiing in the Washington Pass area when it abides by the rules.
I know you do..we've had this conversation before. A lot of TAYers enjoy their services, be it heli days or yurt transfers and we all benefit from their excellent avy reporting and community service.
The most worrying aspect of all this...at least to me....is that when 21 cuts was discovered and investigated by the FS, why didn't NCH/Butler( in the article is says 21 cuts was performed by Butler) voluntarily disclose 18 cuts as well, if as we presume, they were both cut at the same time ?
It's a well established PR rule that "cover ups" and the repercussions thereof can be far more damaging in the long run than just admitting mistakes were made and dealing with that.
I really want to to hear from NCH .
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Chief Etiquette Officer of TAY and TAY's #1 Poster Poet Laureate of TAY. Chairman and Founder of FOTAY( Friends of TAY) Moderator of the moderators. "Most Brilliant Move" of the 11/12 ski season " Knows what he is talking about" Expert Typist.
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mattfirth
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Freeskiguy and a couple of other local backcountry skiers have done a great job getting this information out to the backcountry skiing community, getting the Forest Service involved and holding NCHS publicly accountable. A public thank you to them.
Another series of landing sites has been found by our very dedicated duo on Vasiliki Ridge. Where the map shows one landing site there are now five, with four of those in about a 1/8th of mile section of the ridge. Small trees have been cut down, others limbed and landing stakes in abundance.
So with the other two sites that have been found ( and who knows what else will show up ) what we have is a significant year round impact from heli skiing and a significant impact to NCHS's credibiltiy. Yes these ridges are a little hard to get to and don't see many visitors but that's not really the point. They're spectacular examples of eastside high alpine ridges with very old alpine larch and whitebark pines and the impact of this unauthorized cutting will be evident for many many decades.
There are two other issues that have come up as we've looked over the EA, the permit and operating plan. These are:
Heli assisted backcountry tours. This is not addressed in the EA except in a vague way for the Windy Pass area ( where the yurt is located ) and the Goat Pk area. Snowcat skiing is allowed at Sandy Butte and Mcleod Mtn. The permit allows for "Helicopter skiing" and the operating plan has a very ambiguous paragraph about " ski touring ". So, the way I read this is that it's very questionable whether heli assisted backcountry tours are in fact permitted. Personally I don't have a real problem with this type of tour as long as it's impact is well managed within the context of the current situation. But what I think doesn't really matter here. What the EA and the permit allow is what matters.
The other issue is the use of unauthorized landing zones. This last winter I was touring with a friend in the Driveway Butte/Doe Canyon area and witnessed the helicopter using an unauthorized landing site over the course of the afternoon. This is one of the few areas along the winter time highway that non assisted ( no snowmobile ) backcountry skiers can realistically access in a day. There's no ambiguity here. This type of use is prohibited unless a review process by the FS has been completed.
Just to be clear. No one that I know has a problem with NCHS operating according to the terms of their permit. No one that I know thinks NCHS should be allowed to ignore the terms of their permit.
Lowell has raised an important issue. What I and others have outlined above is the current situation and a conclusion will eventually be reached. But I think that everybody who feels an affinity for this area really needs to think about the longer term. There are more backcountry skiers, there are more and better snowmobiles and snowmobilers, NCHS has substantially increased their user days and I'm pretty sure at least some of the other guiding companies have increased their user days also. So the highway is getting more crowded. More people equals more impact. There's no way we're all going to agree on every issue but it deserves some careful thought and discussion.
So get involved. I encourage you to make a comment to the Forest service. Send it to Michael Liu, District Ranger for the Methow Valley Ranger District.
mliu@fs.fed.us
Matt Firth
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Burma
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21 Cuts
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Burma
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Vasiliki Ridge Cuts
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freeskiguy
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I know you do..we've had this conversation before. A lot of TAYers enjoy their services, be it heli days or yurt transfers and we all benefit from their excellent avy reporting and community service.
The most worrying aspect of all this...at least to me....is that when 21 cuts was discovered and investigated by the FS, why didn't NCH/Butler( in the article is says 21 cuts was performed by Butler) voluntarily disclose 18 cuts as well, if as we presume, they were both cut at the same time ?
It's a well established PR rule that "cover ups" and the repercussions thereof can be far more damaging in the long run than just admitting mistakes were made and dealing with that.
I really want to to hear from NCH .
Here is the entire email that the MVN quotes as to why the unauthorized landing at 21 cuts was established. This email was obtained from a FOIA request so it is part of the public record.It was from from NCHS to Dowie, Laurie 4/1/12 1:36pm
________________________________________ ______________ "Hi, Laurie:
In regards to the tree cutting incident:
Blade Runner is an established heli-skiing run on the top end of the ridge that divides Silver Star Creek and Varden Creek, with the run ending in the Varden Creek drainage. The run starts near Peak 7,030'. The top landing located there has historically been very tight for the helicopter. This season, with a pilot who hadn't flown with us before, we decided to limb some trees and branches to make the existing landing safer to land upon. The trimming occurred on two separate days between 2/18 - 2/20. During the second time, a new landing that the pilot identified as being more safe was established nearby on the ridge. The cutting was done by owners Ken Brooks and Paul Butler, along with the pilot, Scott Murray.
Let me know if more details are needed.
Laurie, we were clearly mistaken in doing this, and should have sought permission, or better yet, perhaps given up on the run altogether. In the upcoming process of renewing our operational plan, we hope to clarify what we spoke of at our recent meeting, of what trimming we are allowed to do without permission (smaller trees and branches in the pick-ups), and what we need permission for (new landings, larger trees). I hope this unauthorized removal of vegetation, in deference to safety, is seen as an aberration, and that North Cascade Heli is trusted as good steward of this public land.
I will send you the final user day info tomorrow along with the actual revenue figure. I hope we can meet soon to discuss several items, including the Sandy Butte thinning idea – sounds like good timing.
Thank you,
Paul"
When I visited the authorized historical landing site that accesses the run called "Blade runner" there were no new cuts of any kind visible at that site and I took extensive photos of that site.There were several old cuts visible on two larch trees and one other tree. The only new cuts were at the unauthorized landings at 21 and 18 cuts.
This quote also from Scotsmen:"They used TAY to post a denial of any cutting and accuse Freeskiguy of a vendetta and that appears to have been an outright deception."
Thank you for "seeing" this. I posted a lengthy post on BC 10 trying to explain my postion on the vendetta and harassment issues and my passion for mountain safety issues. That post was quickly deleted and very few people were allowed to see it.
After living for a while, you become aware that we are all brothers and sisters on this planet and if you hold hate in your heart, it will only erode your soul. It is human folly to particulate in vendettas.
All of the writing about these issues is in the interest of achieving solidarity within our small BC community. In another deleted post, I said that I don't have the solution, but we do. The goal is the safe enjoyment of our wild lands for all, including future generations who have a right to experience the wild nature of the North Cascades, just as we have been able to do.
It is better to accept these mountains the way nature presents them to us rather then trying to continue to mold them, to fit us. Disneyland exists elsewhere.
"Forget about the reasons for the treason's you are seeking Forget about being guilty, you are Innocent instead Forget about the notion that our emotions can be held at bay For soon our lives will all be sweep away" Dave Mathews
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« Last Edit: 09/19/12, 11:23 AM by freeskiguy »
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Scotsman
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Well , freeskiguy, reading the e-mails carefully, it does seem the NCH mentioned the second landing site that you are referring to as 18 cuts in addition to 21 cuts in their e-mail to the FS....so that makes me feel much better about NCH being honest in their communications with the FS ,which is what bothered me.
They admitted and apologized for their mistake , will make restitution and hopefully the positive will be that the incident will help them and the FS clear up the ambiguity regarding what is acceptable trimming for safety reasons and the whole question of authorized LZ's.
As to the whole vendetta issue, it does seem that some of you local guys have some issues with NCH. You are careful in all your posts to say that you support heli-skiing @ WA pass and only want them to comply with their permit and have safety concerns and hence your vigilance.
Frankly , I can't help but think you are being disingenuous in those statements( standard operating procedure when you want to fuck with the other guy.....make your intentions honorable saying safety and compliance is your only goal) and that your real goals are somewhat different.
From my understanding you have been personally involved in disputes with NCH for many, many years and as a result I am suspicious of your real motives.
You don't want to become the Matt Kinney of WA Pass do you? ( Kinney is a Valdez heli-hater and regular loony tune)
BTW.....I consider quoting Dave Mathews lyrics an admission of terrible taste. 
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« Last Edit: 09/19/12, 11:35 AM by Scotsman »
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Chief Etiquette Officer of TAY and TAY's #1 Poster Poet Laureate of TAY. Chairman and Founder of FOTAY( Friends of TAY) Moderator of the moderators. "Most Brilliant Move" of the 11/12 ski season " Knows what he is talking about" Expert Typist.
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Scotsman
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Also see this article in ST. Seems like the timing of the new TAY posts and this article is not a coincidence.( Edit to add:WRONG-See post below from Lowell Skoog....thanks, Scotsman) Matt Firth( our new TAY poster) is quoted.
Id' like to hear more about this new group that is appealing the NCH permit. It's called the North Cascades Backcountry Skiers. Who are their members and what is their stated goal? Care to elaborate Mr. Firth and freeskiguy?
I'm more and more concerned that this is heli-hating rather than " concerned citizens keeping NCH honest. I find it telling that all the posters and groups appealing the existing permit start their quotes and articles with a statement that they don't want to shut down heli-skiing.
From my life experience;( this could be a Dave Mathews song as well freeskiguy)
The racist start by telling you he has black friends, The politician says freedom is the most important thing in the world and the Patriot Act is required to support Freedom, The liar starts his lie by stating the everything he is about to tell you is true, and the heli-hater says he doesn't want to close them down...... just make it impossible for them to operate. 
Disputes heating up on snowy back trails By Chris Solomon[ Seattle Times staff reporter
With timber harvesting all but stopped on federal lands in the Northwest, new battles are nudging the old logger vs. tree hugger debate out of the spotlight. One close to home pits environmentalists against recreationalists, and recreationalists against one another — hiker vs. mountain biker, snowshoer vs. snowmobiler, backcountry skier vs. helicopter skier.
In the Okanogan-Wenatchee national forests, two environmental groups have challenged a decision by local Forest Service officials to renew permits for snowmobile outfitters. Those groups, along with some backcountry skiers, are also challenging the permit for a 14-year-old heli-skiing operation in the forest's Methow Valley.
On Monday, acting deputy regional forester Gary Larsen turned both decisions back to local ranger districts with orders to give the public another chance to comment on the proposed permits. The companies will receive temporary permits to continue this winter.
Such conflicts are not new in the Methow or elsewhere but are increasing as more people head to the woods for recreation, and as the "toys" and equipment to access the backcountry improve, according to Forest Service officials.
"There are a lot of people out there on the national forest who would really, really like to go there and not see another person," said Jennifer Zbyszewski, recreation staff officer for the Methow Valley Ranger District. "And that's getting harder to do. "The more popular places are where the numbers are increasing, and we're seeing increased tension."
For the past three years North Cascades Heli-Skiing in Mazama has sought renewal of its five-year permit to fly skiers within a 300,000-acre area in the Okanogan National Forest. For $675 a day, a helicopter drops skiers on mountaintops and retrieves them after long, powder-filled runs.
Business has been growing about 20 to 30 percent annually, to nearly 600 skiers last winter, said Randy Sackett, who has owned the company since 1988. Sackett wants permission to roughly double the potential skier-days, to 1,050. A skier-day is one skier skiing for one day.
Three snowmobile outfitters also applied for renewals of permits to deliver rented snowmobiles to clients and guide them from 10 Sno-Parks in the Tonasket and Methow Valley ranger districts, and to use a warming hut in Blackpine Basin, a popular snowmobile area. All of the companies had permits in the past.
After environmental analyses, the district rangers in October agreed to grant permits to the operations. But both decisions were appealed by the Kettle Range Conservation Group and Methow Forest Watch. Another group, the North Cascades Backcountry Skiers, joined in appealing the heli-skiing permit.
"We're not trying to shut down heli-skiing," said Matt Firth, an ardent backcountry skier who has lived in the nearby Twisp River Valley area since the mid-1980s. Some self-propelled skiers fear that a potential doubling of heli-skiers, and the possible addition of a second helicopter, would impinge on the solitude that backcountry travelers seek, said Firth.
"Anybody who's ever spent time in the mountains in winter can appreciate that a helicopter flying overhead is a big intrusion."
Environmentalists claim the Forest Service does not fully recognize the impacts that heli-skiing and snowmobiling have on sensitive or endangered species such as lynx, grizzly bear and wolverines — particularly when those businesses are combined with private snowmobile use, which makes up most such use in the area.
"They have utterly failed to address cumulative effects," said Susan Crampton, a field biologist and board member of Methow Forest Watch, a small environmental watchdog group. "We're talking about a long list of uncommon and reclusive wildlife that is being pushed and pushed and pushed."
Crampton added that she is not against snowmobiling. "But it's the Forest Service's responsibility to manage that without damage to forest resources," she said. "And they haven't done that." She said the groups would sue if necessary to block the permits.
Sackett, of North Cascades Heli-Skiing, himself a backcountry skier, said concerns are overblown. He said the company doesn't plan to double its business, and wants the option to use a second helicopter only if a private party wants to reserve it. Guides and pilots rarely see wildlife in the high alpine environment in winter, Sackett said, but the company agreed to avoid some slopes that might contain mountain goats and will be required to report sightings of wolverine tracks or dens.
Such recreation conflicts remain limited mostly to urban-influenced areas, but the issue will only increase as more people move to once-rural places, said Ken Karkula, program manager for recreation special uses for the Forest Service in Washington, D.C.
"You're going to have the pressures, as the national forests become the city parks, the county parks, if you will," Karkula said.
The number of conflicts has also increased as the toys of the backcountry have changed, said Al Soucie, snow ranger for the Salt Lake Ranger District in Utah, home to an ongoing dispute between heli-skiers and backcountry shredders. Better snowshoes, snowboards that can be split and used as skis to ascend mountains, and more powerful snowmobiles make going deeper into the mountains much easier, said Soucie.
Chris Solomon can be reached at 206-515-5646 or csolomon@seattletimes.com.
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« Last Edit: 09/19/12, 01:18 PM by Scotsman »
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Chief Etiquette Officer of TAY and TAY's #1 Poster Poet Laureate of TAY. Chairman and Founder of FOTAY( Friends of TAY) Moderator of the moderators. "Most Brilliant Move" of the 11/12 ski season " Knows what he is talking about" Expert Typist.
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Lowell_Skoog
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Also see this article in ST. Seems like the timing of the new TAY posts and this article is not a coincidence. Matt Firth( our new TAY poster) is quoted.
Hey Scotsman,
Can you provide a link to the Seattle Times article you posted? I'm almost certain that the article is ten years old. Randy Sackett is no longer connected to NCHS. I remember well the issues discussed in the article you posted. I wrote a letter to the Forest Service about them ten years ago.
Your post seems to suggest that there is a connection between the Times article and the recent blowup about tree cutting. If so, you need to clarify what you mean, since I'm pretty sure there's a ten-year gap here.
Thanks.
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Scotsman
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Hey Scotsman,
Can you provide a link to the Seattle Times article you posted? I'm almost certain that the article is ten years old. Randy Sackett is no longer connected to NCHS. I remember well the issues discussed in the article you posted. I wrote a letter to the Forest Service about them ten years ago.
Your post suggests that there is a connection between the Times article and the recent blowup about tree cutting. If so, you need to clarify what you mean, since I'm pretty sure there's a ten-year gap here.
Thanks.
Yep ,my bad...got the date wrong...says Wed Sept 19, 10 year ago. Misread date and I thought it was today! Good catch, my mistake, but it is history Lowell and you love history.
Still think it's heli-hating disguised as citizen concern and a concerted effort to close them down and shows Firth and others have been involved in appealing NCH's permit in the past.
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« Last Edit: 09/19/12, 01:21 PM by Scotsman »
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Chief Etiquette Officer of TAY and TAY's #1 Poster Poet Laureate of TAY. Chairman and Founder of FOTAY( Friends of TAY) Moderator of the moderators. "Most Brilliant Move" of the 11/12 ski season " Knows what he is talking about" Expert Typist.
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freeskiguy
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Yep ,my bad...got the date wrong...says Wed Sept 19, 10 year ago. Misread date and I thought it was today! Good catch, my mistake, but it is history Lowell and you love history.
Still think it's heli-hating disguised as citizen concern and a concerted effort to close them down and shows Firth and others have been involved in appealing NCH's permit in the past.
Do you want to ad mend your previous post based upon the new information you have and not on ten year old information.
Normally I would write something about Conformational Bias and how it's influence upon us can be deadly when we make these same mistakes in the BC.
Scotsmen, I do admire the fact that you are always asking the right questions. Please don't interprete this statement based upon your last circular argument. Each of knows what's in his or her hearts and I mean what I say. The person you are looking for doesn't exist.
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freeskiguy
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Also see this article in ST. Seems like the timing of the new TAY posts and this article is not a coincidence.( Edit to add:WRONG-See post below from Lowell Skoog....thanks, Scotsman) Matt Firth( our new TAY poster) is quoted. Id' like to hear more about this new group that is appealing the NCH permit. It's called the North Cascades Backcountry Skiers. Who are their members and what is their stated goal? Care to elaborate Mr. Firth and freeskiguy? I'm more and more concerned that this is heli-hating rather than " concerned citizens keeping NCH honest. I find it telling that all the posters and groups appealing the existing permit start their quotes and articles with a statement that they don't want to shut down heli-skiing. From my life experience;( this could be a Dave Mathews song as well freeskiguy) The racist start by telling you he has black friends, The politician says freedom is the most important thing in the world and the Patriot Act is required to support Freedom, The liar starts his lie by stating the everything he is about to tell you is true, and the heli-hater says he doesn't want to close them down...... just make it impossible for them to operate. Disputes heating up on snowy back trails By Chris Solomon[ Seattle Times staff reporter
With timber harvesting all but stopped on federal lands in the Northwest, new battles are nudging the old logger vs. tree hugger debate out of the spotlight. One close to home pits environmentalists against recreationalists, and recreationalists against one another — hiker vs. mountain biker, snowshoer vs. snowmobiler, backcountry skier vs. helicopter skier.
In the Okanogan-Wenatchee national forests, two environmental groups have challenged a decision by local Forest Service officials to renew permits for snowmobile outfitters. Those groups, along with some backcountry skiers, are also challenging the permit for a 14-year-old heli-skiing operation in the forest's Methow Valley.
On Monday, acting deputy regional forester Gary Larsen turned both decisions back to local ranger districts with orders to give the public another chance to comment on the proposed permits. The companies will receive temporary permits to continue this winter.
Such conflicts are not new in the Methow or elsewhere but are increasing as more people head to the woods for recreation, and as the "toys" and equipment to access the backcountry improve, according to Forest Service officials.
"There are a lot of people out there on the national forest who would really, really like to go there and not see another person," said Jennifer Zbyszewski, recreation staff officer for the Methow Valley Ranger District. "And that's getting harder to do. "The more popular places are where the numbers are increasing, and we're seeing increased tension."
For the past three years North Cascades Heli-Skiing in Mazama has sought renewal of its five-year permit to fly skiers within a 300,000-acre area in the Okanogan National Forest. For $675 a day, a helicopter drops skiers on mountaintops and retrieves them after long, powder-filled runs.
Business has been growing about 20 to 30 percent annually, to nearly 600 skiers last winter, said Randy Sackett, who has owned the company since 1988. Sackett wants permission to roughly double the potential skier-days, to 1,050. A skier-day is one skier skiing for one day.
Three snowmobile outfitters also applied for renewals of permits to deliver rented snowmobiles to clients and guide them from 10 Sno-Parks in the Tonasket and Methow Valley ranger districts, and to use a warming hut in Blackpine Basin, a popular snowmobile area. All of the companies had permits in the past.
After environmental analyses, the district rangers in October agreed to grant permits to the operations. But both decisions were appealed by the Kettle Range Conservation Group and Methow Forest Watch. Another group, the North Cascades Backcountry Skiers, joined in appealing the heli-skiing permit.
"We're not trying to shut down heli-skiing," said Matt Firth, an ardent backcountry skier who has lived in the nearby Twisp River Valley area since the mid-1980s. Some self-propelled skiers fear that a potential doubling of heli-skiers, and the possible addition of a second helicopter, would impinge on the solitude that backcountry travelers seek, said Firth.
"Anybody who's ever spent time in the mountains in winter can appreciate that a helicopter flying overhead is a big intrusion."
Environmentalists claim the Forest Service does not fully recognize the impacts that heli-skiing and snowmobiling have on sensitive or endangered species such as lynx, grizzly bear and wolverines — particularly when those businesses are combined with private snowmobile use, which makes up most such use in the area.
"They have utterly failed to address cumulative effects," said Susan Crampton, a field biologist and board member of Methow Forest Watch, a small environmental watchdog group. "We're talking about a long list of uncommon and reclusive wildlife that is being pushed and pushed and pushed."
Crampton added that she is not against snowmobiling. "But it's the Forest Service's responsibility to manage that without damage to forest resources," she said. "And they haven't done that." She said the groups would sue if necessary to block the permits.
Sackett, of North Cascades Heli-Skiing, himself a backcountry skier, said concerns are overblown. He said the company doesn't plan to double its business, and wants the option to use a second helicopter only if a private party wants to reserve it. Guides and pilots rarely see wildlife in the high alpine environment in winter, Sackett said, but the company agreed to avoid some slopes that might contain mountain goats and will be required to report sightings of wolverine tracks or dens.
Such recreation conflicts remain limited mostly to urban-influenced areas, but the issue will only increase as more people move to once-rural places, said Ken Karkula, program manager for recreation special uses for the Forest Service in Washington, D.C.
"You're going to have the pressures, as the national forests become the city parks, the county parks, if you will," Karkula said.
The number of conflicts has also increased as the toys of the backcountry have changed, said Al Soucie, snow ranger for the Salt Lake Ranger District in Utah, home to an ongoing dispute between heli-skiers and backcountry shredders. Better snowshoes, snowboards that can be split and used as skis to ascend mountains, and more powerful snowmobiles make going deeper into the mountains much easier, said Soucie.
Chris Solomon can be reached at 206-515-5646 or csolomon@seattletimes.com.
THis is the post I'm refering to.
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Scotsman
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Do you want to ad mend your previous post based upon the new information you have and not on ten year old information.
Normally I would write something about Conformational Bias and how it's influence upon us can be deadly when we make these same mistakes in the BC.
Scotsmen, I do admire the fact that you are always asking the right questions. Please don't interprete this statement based upon your last circular argument. Each of knows what's in his or her hearts and I mean what I say. The person you are looking for doesn't exist.
I already did freeski guy, immediately upon Lowell's correction...see my edit to add and the timing. I thought the edit to add better preserved the fact that I had made a mistake rather than correct my mistake as if it never happened. As to " the person you are looking for doesn't exist"...well let's just say. The person you are looking for doesn't exist.” = “these are not the droids you’re looking for” and “Each of knows what's in his or her hearts” = “Your eyes can deceive you luke….. Don't trust them…. Stretch out with your feelings.”
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Chief Etiquette Officer of TAY and TAY's #1 Poster Poet Laureate of TAY. Chairman and Founder of FOTAY( Friends of TAY) Moderator of the moderators. "Most Brilliant Move" of the 11/12 ski season " Knows what he is talking about" Expert Typist.
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