Hoar layer developing in the N Cascades.

Besides the obvious surface hoar, there is a deeper hoar layer developing in the N Cascades.<br><br>Due to the recent cold weather, we are seeing a hoar layer developing under the December crust. The crust is stong enough to hold up the covering snowpack at this time, but with further snowfalls, there will be growing danger of collapse of this unsupported crust. The crust is mostly developed in areas of lesser snowpack and therefore greater temperature gradient, such as ridge tops that get depleted by wind drift. <br><br>We observed this crust in the Mt Baker ski area backcountry at about 5500' on a NNW aspect. The Baker ski patrol has seen it in other locales and is quite concerned. It may or may not exist in other regions. Probe and pit diligently.<br>

Thank you Tim for the words of caution. This can definitely become a problem over time. When I was BC skiing over Christmas in Santa Fe, NM, we had to cancel our BC plans due to just such a layer.

Snowpack is scary scary. I'm cheering for a pineapple express. Who wants to throw a luau and burn some umbrellas for the rain gods?

Good point, Tim.<br>Same conditions exist in the south end around Rainier.

I'll second the vote for the pineapple express. I noticed this today around paradise

I'm with Sky, too.<br>Bring on the PE.<br>The Rockies are getting all our snow and all we're getting is their persistent weak layers &gt;

So let's throw a luau!<br><br>The drink of the party should be the Hurricane, which involves rum and Pineapple Express juice:<br><br>1 shot of light rum<br>1 shot of dark rum<br>pineapple juice <br>grenadine<br><br>I'll make some umbrellas to burn (in effigy) out of wood and paper. I'll even buy some gin.<br><br>Who has a pig and a spit?<br><br>***Insert hilarious low-brow joke about Pineapple Express juice and hoar frost here.***

That layer can be found around the Snoqualmie area also. Every one please be careful out there. <br><br>When is the party?<br>

Hey Sky (and others), be careful what you wish for!@#$%! <br><br>Medium-range models are starting to show hints of a developing Pineapple Express on days 6-7 (i.e. Jan 18-19), as the jet stream overhead shifts from a northwesterly to a southwesterly direction and taps into warm subtropical moisture far out in the Pacific. Current projections show 5-7" of precip and lowland temps in the 50s F (= freezing levels of 6000-8000 ft). We've had an abnormally large number of PE's in WA and OR so far this season, we definitely don't need another. I'm sure hoping that this model projection doesn't pan out (or at least ends up colder).<br><br>Plus, there are MUCH better ways to get rid of surface and depth hoar than dumping 6" of rain on it. Like burying it under 10 ft of snow, so that the added weight crushes the faceted crystals and the increased insulation of the deep snow allows so-called equitemperature metamorphism to work its magic, rounding the grains and slowly strengthening (or eliminating) the weak layer. If you're gonna have a party, you might as well pray for a huge cycle of repeated cold cutoff lows like the ones which just finished dumping 15-20 ft of snow on the Sierra, except this time have them parked about 500 miles farther north near Vancouver Island. <br><br>

Yes, I have had enough of Pineapple Expresses...<br><br>Regarding the Snoq avy conditions this just appeared on the news sites:<br><br>King5:<br><br>www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_0112...ncheaxSW.727275.html

Komo:
One skier has been injured in a small avalanche at the Alpental ski resort at Snoqualmie Summit. He's been airlifted to Harborview. A second skier hit was not injured.

And I'll take the Pineapple Express, thank you very much. Hope the injured skier is OK.

Just talked to Corey who was at Alpental, glad to hear he's OK. Sounds like the skiers were somewhere close to the cliffs above lower 'Nash when a sympathetic slab released...

Wasn't khayak or myself either; we were within earshot of the top on Edelweiss when we suddenly noticed distinct crack propagation with each uphill skin step and 2 instances of distinct "whooomphing" and bailed ASAP. Conditions had changed dramatically since the "dawn patrol" run earlier in the day. I was just pulling up in front of Pro Ski Service in North Bend at the time of the incident . . .

this morning at alpental, about 6-8" of the top layer was sliding pretty easily. on the ascent, this top layer 'cracked' under light ski-foot-pressure. and the hoar-layer everyone is familiar with is about 18-20" down as of this morning. anyway, please be careful.

At the risk of telling most of y'all something that you already know...<br><br>there's no reason to risk life and limb to have fun skiing in the backcountry, even with the persistent weak layers that we are experiencing in our snowpack right now.<br><br>A more fun and life extending alternative is to copy the old weenies and stick to the conservative terrain that won't slide when it goes "whump". <br>Our geezer patrol will be sticking to trees and shallow slope angles (&lt; 25 degrees) until the snow pack out there becomes more stable. Unless you plan on doing your own patrol work by triggering slides before and in the path of each intender run, You might consider doing the same.<br><br>Another option is to do some real "tours" and go for distance like TAY Charles and some of the other "fish scale riders" do.<br><br>Where? Well, for starters there's lots of good low angle tree skiing around Mt Catherine and Nordic Pass in the Snoqualmie Pass area, and in the Paradise area at the north end of the Paradise Valley and also up on the top of the Mazama Ridge above Reflection Lakes.<br><br>So gang, in hopes that no more our backcountry brothers and sisters get hurt doing what we love... How 'bout giving up some of your low angle stashes, glades and long, flat and fun destinations? <br> <br>Lots of places out there. C'mon, give it up -- where can you suggest that folks go to ski and ride that has a greater degree of safety in high avy danger?<br>

Great post Ron. I will be sticking to the low angle stuff for sure.

It's not just here - this from Utah today . . .<br><br>www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6827473/

. . . and Tahoe . . .

www.couloirmag.com/by_contributor/cateri...ss-Slide-1-11-05.jpg

The Sierras are also sliding on a "rain lens". I was sent a picture showing a 3 meter crown in the Mt. Rose backcountry around Tahoe.  Small bowl skiing area, with big slide factor right now. Be careful, it's going to warm up tomorrow. HA!, right before my post, Greg puts this up. Thats the one!!

It has been a sad past few days.  Good post Ron.<br>I'm still rather shaken after being up at Alpental earlier on Weds. morning on the "Dawn Patrol" outing; especially as we started hearing "whoomps" on a relatively shallow (less than 25 degree) slope at the bottom of Edelweiss Bowl; which is where we turned-back.<br><br>

<br><br>Lots of places out there.  C'mon, give it up -- where can you suggest that folks go to ski and ride that has a greater degree of safety in high avy danger?<br>

<br><br>In search of safer terrain last weekend we (Daniel Tomko, Mark Tomko and myself) scoped out this fun tour on "low-angle" tree and gladed terrain near Salmon La Sac (NW of Cle Elum). <br><br>www.turns-all-year.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB...splay;num=1105337110

Unfortunately, I would not recommend this tour at this time, until at least another 2 feet of snow is received in that area to adequately cover the rocks.  But once it has more coverage, I think it would be fantastic and relatively safe tour in high avy conditions.

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but be careful out there, the current snowpack is very scary!
--Chris

The Utah avalanche forecasts for the last few days are super interesting with astounding pictures of 'Huge' avalanches, 6-8 ft crowns. Bruce Tremper wrote a nice one yesterday. Check out<br><br>www.avalanche.org/~uac

It hasn't been talked about a lot because it has snuck up on us (and forecasts earlier in the week were for great weather this weekend) but it should start to storm again Saturday night with a warming trend through Sunday into Pineapple express land by Monday. Things Sunday could get very sketchy. Be safe.

Ron J: thanks for the post.  i agree.<br><br>i don't know if anyone is interested, but a couple of us are planning to go somewhere around paradise valley on Rainier this Sunday to dig some pits and practice beacon searches (deep burials).  if conditions permit, we'll ski a bit on low angle terrain.  send me email if interested.<br><br>we'll be meeting at 7am on Sunday morning at the South Renton Park and Ride (just off Grady way) to arrange carpools. or meet at paradise parking lot around 9am.<br><br>-kam

It seems like we have a very bad combination of conditions right now: high avalanche danger, low snowpack in the forest, and snow-covered access roads. I don't get much enjoyment out of long trips on logging roads and through clear cuts, so all of this is definitely limiting the places I can think of that I would want to ski. In a typical winter, when the avalanche danger is high I would consider low angled forested areas around Snoqualmie (Nordic Pass, lower Silver Peak bowl, lower Commonwealth basin, Silver Creek-Easton) and Stevens (upper Nason Creek forest, Lake Valhalla). All offer low angle skiing through beautiful forest. I have the impression, though, that with the snowpack we've got (or don't got) most of these destinations would not provide for a very satisfying trip right now, at least based on what I have come to expect. I did try out a new place today - Waptus River trail ( TR here ) - and it was very nice, but it was sort of backcountry XC skiing, which keeps me happy but might not do so for a lot of TAY readers. We really just need some more snow, the denser the better.

PE advocates: Well it's here, and it sucks. Current forecasts are for 9 DAYS of this crap. Whatever consolidation it might be encouraging, it won't matter when everything is down to bare ground again, and if anything there will probably just be another round of depth hoar just because of all the moisture trying to escape from any remaining dense wet low layers once covered. I would rather have a potentially dangerous BC but at least have enough snow in the areas and for XC adventures so that there is some kind of winter left in our hills. And the worst part is that rain falling now is probably shortening even the spring seasons in most of the high places; there won't be enough snow to corn up proper and it will just be rotten once temps get into corning range. Arg.

I'll take the Pineapple Express, thank you very much.

<br><br>

Hey Sky (and others), be careful what you wish for!@#$%! <br><br>Medium-range models are starting to show hints of a developing Pineapple Express on days 6-7

<br><br>Bump. <br><br>Meadows lost ~15"s of snow last night, which is 40% of the snowpack since the base was 37"s before.<br><br>Thanks Sky  

<br><br><br>Thanks Sky  

<br><br>Sky wished for it, but Gaper Jeffrey caused it with his SUV! ;D

Sky wished for it, but Gaper Jeffrey caused it with his SUV! ;D

<br>Hmm, well I have been doing a loottt of driving lately .