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Author Topic: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping  (Read 16911 times)
savegondor
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July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« on: 07/05/11, 02:45 PM »

Video:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ccvOW5o2aA

Oh Yes, I'm trolling for a good discussion.

First the good news.  Multiple chutes and bowls along Sourdough Ridge rock.  And beta from other skiiers indicated better coverage and snow right on Sourdough's northern aspects as opposed to some spotty conditions including everything from dirt to slide activity on the Burroughs.  Main reason I did not ski Burroughs is that I had a group of newbies I did my best to get in trouble with the NP Rangers.

So in hindsight and even in foresight I knew I was in the wrong.  Snow camping without a permit is not allowed in the Sunrise area and anywhere in MRNP.  The backcountry permit would have been free.  I should have got one. 

My party of four skied various aspects of Sourdough on Saturday before grabbing our camping gear and camping on Mt. Fremont.  I was hoping we were in a sort of 'grey area' of the rules since we were snow camping and all the campgrounds were still under the snow.  Turns out that after May 15 summer rules applied and the rangers were very pissed that we were camping on such a high use area.  But here is where the drama began.

On Sunday upon coming out of Fremont basin Rangers who were hanging out in the Sunrise parking lot stopped to ask me a few questions.  I could have kept mum on what I'd been up to and had even considered a covert approach to our cars which would have garnered no questions.  No, I was okay with getting a ticket if that's what I deserved.  So the Ranger asked what we'd been up to and I told him.  Ranger Rick gave us the riot act as expected, slapped us on the hands many times, radioed our plates in, and in the end said, "boy you're lucky....there are no commissioned officers up there to write up a proper ticket.  You are free to go without a fine."  Nice.  Dodged a bullet.  Learned in no uncertain terms: GET A FREAKING BC PASS STUPID!

The drama from the very beginning was that the Rangers were on the prowl for a specific party THAT WASN'T US.  From the beginning Ranger Rick I had assumed my party was that other party and began accusing me/us of not listening to the rangers warnings and instructions....which again did not apply to us.  Best I can piece together is that the Rangers were looking for a party who had stopped at the Ranger Station and had NOT gotten a permit despite reporting their plans to the Rangers.  So this party had basically given the middle finger to the MRNP staff and regulations.  So Ranger Rick I was visibly quaking in fear or anger (I couldn't tell which) and expecting a confrontation.  I didn't give him one. 

So we went back out skiing b/c conditions were awesome.  And I was thinking to myself: 'crap if we stay around, Ranger Rick II aka Sue is going to nail us anyway.' 

And that is exactly what happened.  Two beautiful corn runs later Ranger Sue was waiting in the parking lot on the prowl for this other party.  When I walked to my car Ranger Sue launched into accusations about all the wrong things I had been up to.  But again she was assuming I was this other party and asked me a lot of questions I had no answers to.  But then she did ask what I'd been up to and I told her we had camped that night.  Again, Ranger Sue like Ranger Rick was visibly shaking.  Again I couldn't tell whether it was the fear of confrontation or the adrenaline of thinking she had caught the party she'd been looking for I don't know.    In any case she slapped my hands some more and instead of just writing me a ticket (the party leader who should have had the permit) she cited all three cars of my party at 75 bucks a pop.  And she did so using ONLY the information I had admitted to.  Ranger Rick and Sue had no evidense of our wrong doing, nor had they caught us in the act.  Rather they filled their daily quota by being (in my humble opinion) oportunistic with my honesty.  I had been concerned that possibly they were searching for a lost party and had wanted to tell them that we were not them.  But in so doing I exposed myself to getting a nasty fine.  Jerk faces.

After Ranger Sue took a good half hour of our time writing out tickets for three cars she slapped our hands (as I indicated above) some more and asked if we had any questions or comments.  I did: I told her I knew we were in the wrong and that I thought it was pretty sucky PR for MRNP to corner us TWICE and FINE us based only on information I had provided.  I felt like asking her if she'd violated any speed limits that day and whether she was going to write herself up for it.  In any case it left me a slightly sour taste in my mouth to have been hit with a fine by Rangers who had to first ask me if I'd done anything wrong. 

Lastly, I don't blame Sue for doing her job.  But she clearly didn't use the discretion I would have used and the end result is this:

MRNP HAS HORRIBLE PR and doesn't help its image much in providing horrible costumer service. Sweet, I'm just going to hang out in the parking lot and ask people questions until I find a few honest blokes to give some citations to.  This certain doesn't help safety issues either: next time I won't be volunteering information quite so easily or quickly, information that MRNP may need to rule me out as a party that could have been in trouble. 

 


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JasonGriffith
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #1 on: 07/05/11, 10:12 PM »

I learned a long time ago that it never pays to offer info to the authorities, especially if you have any inkling you may have broken the law.  It is unfortunate, but being open and honest with the man can often lead to some pretty harsh consequences.  Consider it a cheap lesson.
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Joedabaker
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #2 on: 07/05/11, 11:48 PM »

I learned a long time ago that it never pays to offer info to the authorities, especially if you have any inkling you may have broken the law.  It is unfortunate, but being open and honest with the man can often lead to some pretty harsh consequences.  Consider it a cheap lesson.

Agreed and the Park Rangers up there just buddy up to you for ulterior motives. I have learned that very rarely they are interested in my ski stories, but where I have been. So I just say, I don't know the area that well so I just stayed on the snow and followed where the summer trail would be on the map. I brought extra gear in case I had to have an emergency bivy.

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savegondor
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #3 on: 07/06/11, 12:00 AM »

I'm afraid I just don't like these responses even though they are very similar to what I was already thinking.  I have to believe that MNRP policy is set by someone and that 'someone' usually isn't the ranger who's being jerk-faced.  I also suspect they are severely understaffed which may contribute to their poor attitude?  Anyone know anything about whether this might be true? 

Still, I have to also believe that Ranger Sue could have used a little more discretion. 
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glenn_b
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #4 on: 07/06/11, 12:27 AM »

I
  I have to believe that MNRP policy is set by someone and that 'someone' usually isn't the ranger who's being jerk-faced  
I'm Uberauagaed.  Probably not a skier at all.  Watch the plants, ya'll or we all suffer.
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vogtski
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #5 on: 07/06/11, 05:54 AM »

I could be wrong, but I'd guess Ranger Sue is probably a seasonal with a LE commission.  The average odds of one of these types of seasonals eventually ending up with a permanent job is probably less than one in ten.  Those odds can improve a bit if one shows they are really serious about law enforcement, traditionally the main path to career advancement in the Park Service.  It has been changing a bit nationally in recent years, but historically, superintendents came from LE backgrounds and law enforcement dominates NPS culture. 
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Donski
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #6 on: 07/06/11, 06:03 AM »

The drama from the very beginning was that the Rangers were on the prowl for a specific party THAT WASN'T US.  From the beginning Ranger Rick I had assumed my party was that other party and began accusing me/us of not listening to the rangers warnings and instructions....which again did not apply to us.  Best I can piece together is that the Rangers were looking for a party who had stopped at the Ranger Station and had NOT gotten a permit despite reporting their plans to the Rangers.  So this party had basically given the middle finger to the MRNP staff and regulations.  So Ranger Rick I was visibly quaking in fear or anger (I couldn't tell which) and expecting a confrontation.  I didn't give him one. 

 
Quaking in anger!  Did he have his fist clenched?  At that point I'd be afraid he'd get me in a headlock!
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Andrew Carey
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #7 on: 07/06/11, 06:59 AM »

If Vogtski is correct about the temp/seasonal status, then I believe the "quaking" is indeed an emotional reaction to having to confront someone; that does invoke the "fight or flight" physiological syndrome, with release of adrenaline, etc.; similarly the "hand-slapping."  While I am quite critical of park policies and actions in a number of areas, I have met (and even skied with) a number of the experienced LEOs and climbing rangers.  All have treated me with respect, friendliness, and, in a couple of emergency cases, care and concern.  So I think the bad experience the OP had was due to inexperience, and it was not professional.
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Andy Carey, Nisqually Park, 3500 feet below Paradise
vogtski
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #8 on: 07/06/11, 08:07 AM »

Watch the plants, ya'll or we all suffer.

Another prominent aspect of NPS culture is their seige mentality.  Underfunded and often over-extended, they tend to see the visitor as the source of many, if not most of their problems.  This can result in management taking the easy way out with closures & blanket prohibitions, for example:
http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboarding/trip_reports/index.php?topic=10692.0

It's important for skiers & rangers to try to minimize resource damage, but the NPS seems to have an institutional blind spot to the effects of their past management policies relative to current impacts.  At Paradise, I'd say about 80% of the trail and meadow damage was the result of decades of management-approved horseback-riding concession use.  Perhaps another ten percent is due to poor design of more recent restoration efforts, such as locating the restored trail on the most heavily damaged rather than first-melting areas where persistent snowbanks reoccur each year.  Careless visitors are a relatively minor resource problem IMO.

Being drier, Sunrise vegetation and soils are more fragile and harder to restore, but again past management policies led to much of the resource damage.  There was an poorly conceived auto campround in the Sunrise meadows for many years as well as hundreds of cabins here.

[Edit to convert URL to link. - rj


« Last Edit: 07/07/11, 12:47 PM by ron j » Logged

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turchinc
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #9 on: 07/06/11, 01:54 PM »

interesting, this trip report reminds me of another story i heard this weekend, differing in several, very critical, details. let's see if someone else notices:

skiers A, B and C went out to ski and snow camp out of sunrise on the weekend july 2-3. at some point, they party realized a error in their plans: though they were planning on snow camping, summer season had arrived in the park and they had no permit. trying to do The Right Thing, they contacted a friend/family member, hiker D, coming up for a day hike and requested he organize the permit for them on his way up. hiker D stopped at the ranger station on entry and explained the situation: party on the mountain, skiing, planning on overnight, but forgot to get a b/c permit, yada yada yada... and hiker D requests the permit for said party.

at this point the rangers become aggressive and literally get angry at hiker D for Huh apparently for just being there. after grilling hiker D and slapping him on the wrist for Huh he is seriously concerned he is going to get in trouble for just asking a question. he informs the by this point irate ranger that both he - and the party of skiers - are just trying to do the right thing and obtain a b/c permit as required by MRNP. at this point the ranger calms down (a little), but still refuses to issue a permit. at this point,  the ranger apparently starts forming a posse, with the sole purpose of "getting" skiers A, B and C. hiker D has no further options, but also no stake in the events that are unfolding and continues on - he is just day hiking and doesn't need a permit - does his day hike, meets up with party of skiers for lunch, and goes home.

the happy ending: skiers A, B and C make their turns (as the do all year) spend the night (they too, knowing that they were in the wrong and prepared to face the music should it come to that) and depart the next day. all without mishap. the end.

okay, that is all hearsay, i was not there (i am not even in the country!) but its cross checked with several reliable sources (A, B and D). and AFAICT, nobody in the party stuck their stick the middle finger up at anyone. on the contrary, they made a serious effort to fix the error, doing everything short of leaving the mountain. as an outsider, i find the general attitude of the MRNP staff as portrayed by both savegondor and the party to be seriously disappointing and lacking in any degree of understanding or, dare a i say, compassion. it certainly does not encourage anyone to do or say the right thing in the park under any circumstances. and indeed, it is most unfortunate that the ranger rage and hefty fines found savegondor and party as their scapegoat.

-chris

ps. no, attached image has nothing to do with this thread, except that we started from the same side of the mountain ;-)


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kath
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #10 on: 07/06/11, 02:17 PM »

if you knew you were in the wrong .. which you obviously did .. then you gotta take what's coming .. whether or not you were honest and admitted it ..

personally we have never had a prob with the rangers at white river .. on the contrary they have been really cool .. but my god .. the permits are free, unlike in the olys, and so ez to get, unlike in the north cascades np .. just do it .. that way they have an idea of who is out there and where in case of a rescue and to monitor the numbers in the bc ..

still .. i will admit i have come upon some rangers in the park who can act like little nazis .. with their power .. 
« Last Edit: 07/06/11, 02:25 PM by kath » Logged
zenom
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #11 on: 07/06/11, 02:43 PM »

Shortly after the Glacier Basin trail opened this year, while Glacier Basin was under about 10-ft of snow, we were asked by Rangers to move our tent (we had a permit for Glacier Basin overnight stay). Our tent was set on a preexisting tent platform dug on the snow from a previous party which was probably on about 10-ft deep snow over ground.

The Rangers forced us to move laterally about 40-ft to a "designated" site. Since designated sites were not marked and unknown with so much snow, the Rangers had to show us exactly where the tent was permitted to be placed. Annoying and illogical, but they obviously enjoyed excercising their authority...

So, the moral of the story is that it was required by these Ranger Staff to locate a tent at a "designated site" regardless of how much snow is present, also regardless of whether designated sites were even visible. I'm still curious what the written rules on this are, and will be sure to inquire next time I'm getting a permit in hope to avoid such Ranger interaction.


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savegondor
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #12 on: 07/06/11, 03:23 PM »

Well, your story below is almost certainly the party they were looking for...but found ME instead.  I guess it makes me more jaded to learn that they actually tried to do the right thing and that the NPS decided to get their posse going anyway.  Hiker D must have given out a couple names when he initially tried to get the permit b/c ranger Sue and Ranger Rick had some names they were looking for but no location.  They even scoffed at me when I said I hadn't seen anybody else out there (which  I hadn't). 

interesting, this trip report reminds me of another story i heard this weekend, differing in several, very critical, details. let's see if someone else notices:

skiers A, B and C went out to ski and snow camp out of sunrise on the weekend july 2-3. at some point, they party realized a error in their plans: though they were planning on snow camping, summer season had arrived in the park and they had no permit. trying to do The Right Thing, they contacted a friend/family member, hiker D, coming up for a day hike and requested he organize the permit for them on his way up. hiker D stopped at the ranger station on entry and explained the situation: party on the mountain, skiing, planning on overnight, but forgot to get a b/c permit, yada yada yada... and hiker D requests the permit for said party.

at this point the rangers become aggressive and literally get angry at hiker D for Huh apparently for just being there. after grilling hiker D and slapping him on the wrist for Huh he is seriously concerned he is going to get in trouble for just asking a question. he informs the by this point irate ranger that both he - and the party of skiers - are just trying to do the right thing and obtain a b/c permit as required by MRNP. at this point the ranger calms down (a little), but still refuses to issue a permit. at this point,  the ranger apparently starts forming a posse, with the sole purpose of "getting" skiers A, B and C. hiker D has no further options, but also no stake in the events that are unfolding and continues on - he is just day hiking and doesn't need a permit - does his day hike, meets up with party of skiers for lunch, and goes home.

the happy ending: skiers A, B and C make their turns (as the do all year) spend the night (they too, knowing that they were in the wrong and prepared to face the music should it come to that) and depart the next day. all without mishap. the end.
 
okay, that is all hearsay, i was not there (i am not even in the country!) but its cross checked with several reliable sources (A, B and D). and AFAICT, nobody in the party stuck their stick the middle finger up at anyone. on the contrary, they made a serious effort to fix the error, doing everything short of leaving the mountain. as an outsider, i find the general attitude of the MRNP staff as portrayed by both savegondor and the party to be seriously disappointing and lacking in any degree of understanding or, dare a i say, compassion. it certainly does not encourage anyone to do or say the right thing in the park under any circumstances. and indeed, it is most unfortunate that the ranger rage and hefty fines found savegondor and party as their scapegoat.

-chris

ps. no, attached image has nothing to do with this thread, except that we started from the same side of the mountain ;-)
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savegondor
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #13 on: 07/06/11, 04:15 PM »

i agree Kath - I also would like to promote the idea of policy change at the NPS.  Conservation is achieved through good discretion and the building of cooperative relationship.  NPS's attitude is all too often not productive toward this end or goal. 

if you knew you were in the wrong .. which you obviously did .. then you gotta take what's coming .. whether or not you were honest and admitted it ..

personally we have never had a prob with the rangers at white river .. on the contrary they have been really cool .. but my god .. the permits are free, unlike in the olys, and so ez to get, unlike in the north cascades np .. just do it .. that way they have an idea of who is out there and where in case of a rescue and to monitor the numbers in the bc ..

still .. i will admit i have come upon some rangers in the park who can act like little nazis .. with their power .. 
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kath
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #14 on: 07/06/11, 04:30 PM »

i agree Kath - I also would like to promote the idea of policy change at the NPS.  Conservation is achieved through good discretion and the building of cooperative relationship.  NPS's attitude is all too often not productive toward this end or goal. 


i agree wholeheartedly .. hence my earlier campaign to bring gator in as the new supt .. anyhow .. like i said b4 .. i have met rangers in all the parks that are friendly and helpful .. and others who are just so anal you have to shake you head in disbelief ... granted some are just power hungry imo .. but i think with others it stems fm dealing with so many visitors who aren't respectful .. and they just react b4 seeing the whole picture .. i also know there is a lot of abuse in glacier basin .. people leaving trash and all .. and that there is usually a full-time volunteer up there who tries to maintain some order ..
« Last Edit: 07/06/11, 04:35 PM by kath » Logged
Hawthorne
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #15 on: 07/06/11, 04:37 PM »

Vote...
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #16 on: 07/06/11, 10:32 PM »

Wow.  Soooo many questions, so many non-sequitors, so many adults dodging personal responsibility.  The main players here had their plan, did not really care about wilderness, impacts, wildlife (just how did they store their food??), blah, blah, blah, and sure as heck didn't check about anything as silly as regulations.  They got caught.   Yikes, spin the story, make the rangers sound like thugs, shaking with anger and rage, completely insane.  Portray themselves as reasonable nature lovers whose actions surley are innocent.  Others pile on.  Repeat.
Take a LNT course.  Accept, without qualification, your own actions.  Quit whining.
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Ranger Rick
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #17 on: 07/07/11, 12:02 AM »

Jerk faces.

Who are you calling a jerk face, jerk face?
 Angry
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Donski
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #18 on: 07/07/11, 06:26 AM »

Who are you calling a jerk face, jerk face?
 Angry

Dang, those sound like fighting words. 

It's as simple as this:  Know the park rules, abide by them, and everyone can have a joyful day!
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T. Eastman
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #19 on: 07/07/11, 09:42 AM »

"to live outside the law, you gotta be honest" - Dylan
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Amar Andalkar
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WWW
Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #20 on: 07/07/11, 11:07 AM »

interesting, this trip report reminds me of another story i heard this weekend, differing in several, very critical, details. let's see if someone else notices:

skiers A, B and C went out to ski and snow camp out of sunrise on the weekend july 2-3. at some point, they party realized a error in their plans: though they were planning on snow camping, summer season had arrived in the park and they had no permit. trying to do The Right Thing, they contacted a friend/family member, hiker D, coming up for a day hike and requested he organize the permit for them on his way up.

...

the happy ending: skiers A, B and C make their turns (as the do all year) spend the night (they too, knowing that they were in the wrong and prepared to face the music should it come to that) and depart the next day. all without mishap. the end.

...

Not sure if I should stick my head into this thread or not -- but there is a major inconsistency in the story of skiers A,B,C. As quoted straight from the MRNP website, Backcountry permits are required year round. So regardless of whether they were planning to snow camp or whether summer rules applied, they needed to get a permit before embarking on their trip. Their plans were always in error if they involved camping in MRNP without a permit.

Which kind of makes the rest of their story moot -- do they really expect the already busy/overworked park rangers to give their friend (hiker D, who would not even be camping with them) a permit for them ex post facto? That's a fairly unreasonable expectation -- just get the free permit yourself before your trip, or else suffer any consequences of forgetting to get the permit beforehand (and then illegally camping anyway) with a smile.

Unfortunately, based on the "happy ending" part of the story, it appears that skiers A,B,C made no effort to contact rangers after their trip. Is that a correct interpretation of the happy ending paragraph? If so, that's disappointing. Were they really "prepared to face the music"? Apparently not true. All for fear of getting a ticket after hiker D warned them, but creating even more extra work for the rangers who would be required to check if they were still out there somewhere or not, and also check whether they were safe or had some unfortunate incident befall them. The rangers (among many other duties) are responsible for search and rescue throughout the park, so it is reasonable that they would want to know who is out there for long periods (more than a day hike).

Savegondor, appreciate your honesty in dealing with the rangers, sorry you had to suffer the full consequences largely due to another party's actions angering the rangers. Hope that you and others would not choose dishonesty in the future just because of this unfortunate incident.


Who are you calling a jerk face, jerk face?
 Angry

By the way, view the previous posts of "Ranger Rick" for some humor, it's a trolling-only user account:
http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboarding/trip_reports/index.php?action=profile;u=4490;sa=showPosts

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Scotsman
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #21 on: 07/07/11, 11:50 AM »

The mistake made by both parties was putting themselves in a position to get caught.

If you can't outwit MRNP Rangers then I fear for your life skills.....duh!
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altasnob
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #22 on: 07/07/11, 07:54 PM »

permits suck. I'm for the free flow of outdoor recreationist with no boarders.
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CascadeClimber
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #23 on: 07/11/11, 10:36 AM »

Some of the LEs up there seem to be on a total power trip. Had a friend get into a driving incident up there a while back and they were more interested in throw the book at him than making sure he was okay.

A few years ago I got there for a one-day climb/ski of the Emmons after registration closed. I left a note on the door so they knew I was on the mountain and not camping.

I stupidly left my car keys at the toe of the Inter on the way up and checked in the the Ranger at Schurman on the way down to see if they'd been turned in. The dude was FAR more interested in reading me the riot act about climbing without registering than he was in finding out about my car keys.

His behavior, intended to induce remorse and future compliance from me, got them neither. Instead it lowered my respect for the rangers and the rules.
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savegondor
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #24 on: 07/21/11, 10:58 AM »

Wow.  Soooo many questions, so many non-sequitors, so many adults dodging personal responsibility.  The main players here had their plan, did not really care about wilderness, impacts, wildlife (just how did they store their food??), blah, blah, blah, and sure as heck didn't check about anything as silly as regulations.  They got caught.   Yikes, spin the story, make the rangers sound like thugs, shaking with anger and rage, completely insane.  Portray themselves as reasonable nature lovers whose actions surley are innocent.  Others pile on.  Repeat.
Take a LNT course.  Accept, without qualification, your own actions.  Quit whining.

I for one am not 'dodging' personal responsiblity in having this discussion.  I was in violation for not picking up a permit.  No qualifications. 

My wrong doing does not excuse the wrong doing by the NPS.  No qualifications.  Furthermore if NPS employees are reading these message boards then they are aware of the complaints we are voicing.  If that awareness does not engender a desire to change your ways then you're just going to get more and more bitter and do a poorer and pooer job at serving the public.  And you'll just be more miserable.

I suggest the NPS focus should be on sharing your passion and love for the outdoors instead of being overly litigious.  Your wanton disregard for public opinion does not help conserve MRNP, it clearly harms it.



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savegondor
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Posts: 443


Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #25 on: 07/21/11, 11:01 AM »

who are you ranger rick?  whoever you are, if you insist on calling yourself a ranger rick then the best of luck to you good sir! 

Who are you calling a jerk face, jerk face?
 Angry
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coyote
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Posts: 73


Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #26 on: 07/22/11, 06:16 AM »

I hope not to offend, but this kind of sounds like there is a little bit of an overblown sense of entitlement going on here. Among this group of outdoor enthusiasts (TAY) there should be little if any question about what the rules at MRNP are- and the answers are quite easy to find.

The rules were broken and met with consequences. How can you expect anything else, regardless of what you want to believe?

The rangers do not have an easy job and there are a whole slew of reasons that they need to enforce the rules. Including public and personal safety.

I just think that if you're breaking the rules, don't get mad at the rangers when you get caught.
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Splitter
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Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #27 on: 07/22/11, 06:42 AM »



If you can't outwit MRNP Rangers then I fear for your life skills.....duh!


I would guess that skiers A, B, &  C were alerted by D about the rangers and did just that.  The others being unaware of the stick in the hornets nest were not so lucky.

I think it comes down to goal of the NPS.  Being underfunded and staffed, they should be trying to create as many allies as possible.  Give a hand slap but make sure the public leaves thinking you are a great guy (or girl).  If you just want to exert authority, you will eventually find yourself a bit lonely.

The rangers have to know that camping without permits happens, why create a situation where you have to be angry about it.
The skiers in this episode lost a few dollars and some respect for the NPS.
The rangers lost an opportunity to do their jobs well, to enjoy their work, and perhaps a bit of their minds.

Personally, I have always had good interactions with rangers.  Occasionally, I have run into someone that seems reserved and appears to be thinking that since I am "public", I am probably up to something.
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Pete A
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WWW
Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #28 on: 07/22/11, 08:34 AM »

nearly all the rangers i've met have been great, though i have met an occasional one that was on a power trip and had a less than positive experience with them (coincidence of not, they were both volunteer rangers).   one time it was a fellow in glacier basin who informed me he was going to start collecting up running shoes stashed by climbers on the bear poles and under rocks in glacier basin, the other was a trip to van trump park were the first thing the ranger said to me was 'you don't have a permit to be here do you?'....of course i did, and he left my party alone though i think he was rather unhappy he couldn't wield his power to impress his two female hiking companions.   

my worst experience was I was actually separated from my party at the White River Trailhead and each of us was questioned individually by separate rangers for a rather tense few minutes until the last member of our party showed up who had our permit with them...there had been reports of illegal camping in Glacier Basin and because we matched the description (a party of three with skis) the rangers were certain they'd got the right ones....they apologized when we produced our permit.

just follow the rules and accept that nobody is perfect and you'll usually have a good time in the park.   Many years ago my party in Spray Park was inching our way back out with a member of our party who had a blown knee (we had been carrying him from Knapsack Pass).... the workers clearing the snow off the Mowich Lake Rd radioed a ranger who drove up the closed road and was more than happy to give our entire party a lift back to the winter gate....on the way down we passed by another party with overnight gear... she got out of the car and asked if they had permits...they didn't...and she issued them some sort of citation..getting back into the car she turned to us and said 'please tell me you guys have a permit.'  we gave her the permit and I think she was very relieved to not have to do the enforcement officer thing....   

play by the rules, if you don't....my two cents is you don't get to whine about the type of reception you get from the park staff.   

« Last Edit: 07/22/11, 08:51 AM by Pete A » Logged
andyski
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Posts: 457


Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #29 on: 07/22/11, 11:46 AM »

Let's be honest: Some of us who use the park a lot expect to be treated differently than everyone else ("the tourists"). I've been guilty of this myself. It's the same ethic you see at ski areas. Having locals break the rules doesn't make things any easier, though good on ya' for admitting it.

"The Man is keeping you down": A skier through the years (groupings not mutually exclusive)
Pre-teen: Man! My parents are keeping me down.
Teen through early 20s: Man! Ski patrol is keeping me down.
30s-40s: Man! My wife/husband/kids/job is keeping me down.
The meadow-skipping years: Man! The USFS/NPS is keeping me down.
Beyond: Man! My twice-reconstructed knee/back/hip is keeping me down.
Grin Grin Grin
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Jim Oker
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Posts: 1591


Re: July 2-3, 2011, Sunrise Corn and Illegal Camping
« Reply #30 on: 07/22/11, 04:31 PM »

"The Man is keeping you down": A skier through the years (groupings not mutually exclusive)
Pre-teen: Man! My parents are keeping me down.
Teen through early 20s: Man! Ski patrol is keeping me down.
30s-40s: Man! My wife/husband/kids/job is keeping me down.
The meadow-skipping years: Man! The USFS/NPS is keeping me down.
Beyond: Man! My twice-reconstructed knee/back/hip is keeping me down.

By far my favorite contribution to this intriguing thread.
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