Home > Trip Reports > June 12, Mt Baker, Easton Glacier

June 12, Mt Baker, Easton Glacier

6/15/11
WA Cascades West Slopes North (Mt Baker)
17299
36
Posted by Roman Rodyakin on 6/13/11 3:38pm
Parked exactly 2 miles from Schreiber's Meadow trailhead.  The patch of snow that prevented us from driving further will probably melt out soon, which should open another mile of the road.  Some high-clearance vehicles were actually able to drive that mile as of this past weekend.

Left the car at around 5:15am, hiked one mile mostly on the bare road, and started skinning 1 mile from the trailhead.  Made it to the summit around 5pm.  By that time, the snow softened up enough that we didn't have any problems skinning all the way up.  The top 100ft of the Roman Wall were pretty solidly frozen and not very pleasant to make turns on, but the next 5000+ ft vertical featured reasonably perfect corn.  From about the glacier terminus, it was expectedly progressively heavier mush.

A pretty good workout with grand views.

The GPS track: http://rodyakin-topo.s3.amazonaws.com/view/2011-06-12-BakerEaston.html
Nice work Roman.  Looks like at least ~7,800ft gain by your track on the topo map.  Thats a big day!!  I bet you enjoyed work on Monday ;)

great trip Roman
nice meeting you and excellent skiing!!!

thanks for the pics and GPS track




In your second photo are those knots in your rope, and if so what are they for?

Thanks.

author=old guy link=topic=21155.msg90531#msg90531 date=1308075206]
In your second photo are those knots in your rope, and if so what are they for?

Thanks.


I just read about this in the Mountaineers Alpine Climbing book ... the knots will help to hang up on the lip of a crevasse if one falls in.

I was so afraid of that.  Bear Grills said the same thing on his survival show.  He tied knots in a parachute cord as his belay!
If you think about it there isn't enough weight on the end of the line to enable the knots to cut into the lip of a crevasse.  If you have 4 or 5 feet between the knots think about the force generated prior to the knot hitting the edge; there is only a very, very small chance that the knot will catch. 
Another point is if you are soloing with this technique think about how you would exit the crevasse when you try to turn the edge.  As you ascend up the rope you will reach a point where you can't go any further up without pulling the knot out of the slot it is caught in. 
The only way I have seen used successfully to self belay on a glacier is by standing inside an aluminum ladder.  There have been a number of climbers that have used this technique but I must admit I have never seen a skier (now that would make a great photo).
When traveling on a glacier and you have concerns about crevasses then rope up with other individuals.  As a member of Mountain Rescue I hate to see people using a knotted rope as their belay.  These types of techniques keep  us busy.

Be safe out there.

Did you have another rope? If you have another rope (and the person with the rope was still on top) then your system could be ok. Otherwise, think of how the knots would get in the way of the people pulling you out (or you ascending the rope). You can't pull a knot through a pulley when hauling. And you would have to rewrap or reposition your ascender at each knot when ascending. A PITA in an already difficult situation.

author=old guy link=topic=21155.msg90533#msg90533 date=1308076959]
I was so afraid of that....Another point is if you are soloing with this technique think about how you would exit the crevasse when you try to turn the edge.  As you ascend up the rope you will reach a point where you can't go any further up without pulling the knot out of the slot it is caught in. 
The only way I have seen used successfully to self belay on a glacier is by standing inside an aluminum ladder.   There have been a number of climbers that have used this technique but I must admit I have never seen a skier (now that would make a great photo).
When traveling on a glacier and you have concerns about crevasses then rope up with other individuals.  As a member of Mountain Rescue I hate to see people using a knotted rope as their belay.  These types of techniques keep  us busy.

Be safe out there.


I don't believe they were soloing or self belaying.  There were two skiiers on this trip roped together.  The knotted rope I believe is in play to help one skier arrest the fall, as well has help take pressure off arresting skier as he builds anchor.  Without a 3rd skier free to build anchor, while 2nd is in arrest position.  The knots catching on crevasse lip may provide 2nd skier a little more ease in building anchor.

At least that is my interpretation of why the two are connect with a knotted rope.

Phil, nice meeting you too.  I didn't have a lot of hope for TAY partners wanted section, but it does apparently deliver, even on a Friday afternoon.  Great trip, efficient pace, equipment in sync between the two of us, just enough clouds to provide an occasional shade and dramatize the views, but not enough to impair the visibility or route finding.  Everything was pretty perfect -- we even hit the upper mountain at the right time...yay for the long summer days -- come to think of it, we didn't even have to use the headlamps at any time during the long day :-)

Oh, and that porter that you brought was money, I owe you one.

Re knots in the rope, I believe it's a common technique for two-person roped glacier travel -- I have seen it recommended in a number of respected climbing texts by respected authors.  The reasoning is basically that it adds to the friction during a typical crevasse fall and therefore reduces the force necessary to arrest the fall.  While I personally have not measured the forces in knotted vs. non-knotted rope, it seems obvious to me that in any reasonably soft snow a knot does generate more friction than a straight section of the rope, particularly if it digs in to the snow.  Given the relatively low (in climbing terms) forces generated by a crevasse fall, it makes sense to me that this friction can non-trivially reduce the force required to arrest the fall.

Of course the loops make prusiking out of a crevasse more difficult, but I view prusiking as secondary to arresting the fall.  In other words, given the hypothetical choice between a perfect prusiking/hauling system and a perfect self-arrest system, I'd take the latter over the former any time.

Interesting. To each his own! Thanks for the TR. The corn on that side of the mtn. is prime!

author=Roman Rodyakin link=topic=21155.msg90539#msg90539 date=1308082966]
Re knots in the rope, I believe it's a common technique for two-person roped glacier travel -- I have seen it recommended in a number of respected climbing texts by respected authors. 


It would be interesting to know more about these sources. The latest text I have is Backcountry Skiing by Volken, Schell and Wheeler. They don't teach the use of knots in the rope.

As TobyT said, knots would make a pulley lift impossible unless you have a second rope. Self-rescue using prussiks would be a lot harder too. In my experience you want be able to raise your upper (waist) prussik really easily, because when you're not sitting on it you have to use your arms to keep your balance. Wearing a pack makes it worse. Maneuvering the upper prussik around a knot could be really tiring.

I trust that you've practiced this and have decided that the difficulty is acceptable. I'd be curious to hear how well it worked.

author=Lowell_Skoog link=topic=21155.msg90574#msg90574 date=1308106091]
Self-rescue using prussiks would be a lot harder too. .... Maneuvering the upper prussik around a knot could be really tiring.


A possibly mitigating factor - infrequently used prusiks have a tendency to slip down a rope especially if they are not sized correctly with respect to the main rope (the prusiks need to be a little smaller).  Knots in the main rope could make it harder to go up but reduce the risk of slipping down.

I have a friend who had his prusiks slip out of control down a pit (in a cave) and was injured on landing.  What makes it worse is that if you reflexively grip the knot, you can hold it open, which is what I recall happened.  Prusiks have been replaced almost across the board for use in caves by mechanical ascenders that don't generally have this problem; I think that prusiks are still used widely in crevasse kits only because mechanical ascenders weigh too much.


author=James Wells link=topic=21155.msg90580#msg90580 date=1308110305">
Prusiks have been replaced almost across the board for use in caves by mechanical ascenders that don't generally have this problem; I think that prusiks are still used widely in crevasse kits only because mechanical ascenders weigh too much.


I have a set of Petzl Tiblocs, which are almost as light as prussiks. They are an attractive alternative, but I generally carry prussiks because they are more versatile. For example, ascending a stuck rappel rope, I would want to wrap prussiks around both strands. Tiblocs can't do that.

Tiblocs would be easier to pass around a knot in a rope, but they are fiddly and it would be easy to drop one.

author=Lowell_Skoog link=topic=21155.msg90574#msg90574 date=1308106091">
It would be interesting to know more about these sources. The latest text I have is Backcountry Skiing by Volken, Schell and Wheeler. They don't teach the use of knots in the rope.


It's in "Alpine Climbing" by Mark Houston and Kathy Cosley. They call them stopper knots.

Another technique when using stopper knots is to climb out using a pair of "aiders"( I have a pair of lightweight alpine aiders that don't weight much) and clipping the loops on the stopper knots( like clipping fixed gear while aid climbing) while stabilizing yourself with a fifi hook connected to your harness .This assumes you have the stopper knots close enough apart to allow clipping your top aider while standing in the lower. Not as ideal as a knot free rope and prussiks, but it will get you up and the stopper knot techniques does have better arresting capability when you are just a two man team.

Another technique I used on a trip in the Wrangell-St Elias where the crevasses are very large and dangerous was to use alpine climbing" twin "ropes, one tied with stopper knots and one without and equalized for length. You got the arresting ability of the stopper knots and a clean rope to prussik out on.  Heavier, but the Twin ropes also gave the other members plenty of rope for anchors and setting up pulleys. Never used this technique any other place than that trip but man.. it was a scary place crevasse wise and we used the ropes for proper alpine climbing after we had got to the face.

author=Lowell_Skoog link=topic=21155.msg90574#msg90574 date=1308106091]
It would be interesting to know more about these sources. The latest text I have is Backcountry Skiing by Volken, Schell and Wheeler. They don't teach the use of knots in the rope.


Craig Connally, The Mountaineering Handbook: Modern Tools and Techniques that Will Take You to the Top, Ragged Mountain Press, 2005 --  page 331.

Mark Houston/Kathy Gosley, Alpine Climbing: Techniques to Take You Higher, The Mountaineers Books, 2004 -- pages 269-270

Mountaineering: The Freedom of the Hills, 7th Edition, The Mountaineers Books, 2003, page 387

author=Lowell_Skoog link=topic=21155.msg90574#msg90574 date=1308106091]
As TobyT said, knots would make a pulley lift impossible unless you have a second rope. Self-rescue using prussiks would be a lot harder too. In my experience you want be able to raise your upper (waist) prussik really easily, because when you're not sitting on it you have to use your arms to keep your balance. Wearing a pack makes it worse. Maneuvering the upper prussik around a knot could be really tiring.


Well, to expand on what I said about viewing prusiking/hauling as secondary to self-arrest, here's two hypothetical situations:

-- a climber free-hanging on a rope in a crevasse, his head about 3 feet below the crevasse lip, his fall having been successfully and immediately arrested by his partner, the rope anchored by a secure anchor on the glacier surface; the climber's prusik slings in his pockets, the rope has knots in it, and his partner has never heard of a z-pulley.

-- after a failed self-arrest, an entire rope team wedged (along with the rope) upside down 100 feet below glacier surface in a deep crevasse, having hit multiple ledges while suffering the long fall; their knowledge of hauling systems top-notch, their prusiking skills recently practiced, their prusiks perfectly tied to the rope.

Which one is more likely to result in all of the rope team surviving the accident?  My guess is that the first one.

In the first case, yes, prusiking might be difficult, but you have the time and physical capacity to figure out your way out of the situation: lower a separate haul line, or maybe free-climb out of the crevasse, or maybe put an ice-screw, clip a sling to it and aid-climb out of the crevasse, or maybe chop a step in the crevasse wall and climb off that, or maybe get lowered and walk out of the crevasse if the crevasse shape allows that, or maybe involve another team that might happen to be on the glacier, or maybe summon rescue with your PLB -- depending on the particulars of the situation there might be a variety of options that you can explore since the entire rope team is alive, uninjured, stable and anchored.

In the second case, realistic rescue (self- or otherwise) options are likely non-existent.

This is why, given the tradeoff between (1) increasing the likelihood of a successful arrest at the expense of making it more difficult to prusik up rope and (2) simplifying the prusiking at the expense of making it more difficult to arrest a fall, I go for (1), as I believe it provides me with a higher chance to survive a random crevasse fall.

I have used the knots in the rope technique with my wife while climbing on glaciers.  You can feel the knots get hung up on suncups so they will probably help quite a bit if they get caught in soft snow when the rope digs into the lip.  A good way to use this technique is to divide the rope into thirds, tie in on each side of the middle third , then tie the knots in the middle third.  Each person then keeps a third on a coil with them to drop into the crevasse to pull the other climber out or to give them an unknotted line to ascend.  You need a 50 or 60m rope to do this effectively though or you will be too close together.

Another option is to tie the knots (figure 8's on bights) close enough together to act like a bolt ladder so the fallen climber can clip into each knot and step up on a sling to ascend the rope.

Roman, what is your thought process on an unresponsive person in the crevasse?
-Consider this situation,

-You fall in, your partner arrests your fall with the aid of knots. You hit your head on crevasse wall 10' down and are unconscious and stay that way. You are dressed in a light soft shell and become hypothermic. Your partner can't haul you up because there are knots in the rope and doesn't trust the anchors available to hold both of your body weights (to descend to you).

You mention yourself that a crevasse fall is relatively low force. Indeed, many "falls" are stopped by the partner just tensioning the rope and leaning hard. It seems like the "arrest" isn't the issue during a crevasse fall on a glacier, in the spring, when the snow is soft and cracks are smaller.

Thanks,
This discussion is food for thought for me. I was involved in a rescue this weekend in which a woman fell into the "waterfall" among the Easton moraines, ice cold water pounding on her from the start. She was in there for over and hour, injured with dislocated/broken bones, hypothermic and unable to assist any of the rescue party. The chopper didn't come for HOURS.

Great discussion! Thanks!

TobyT - I think we can all think of scenarios that highlight flaws in each method.  

(example - Two roped climbers, one of which has a crevasse fall and is rendered unconcious.  Arresting climber is unable (for whatever reason) to build anchor and unweight and free from rope, remains trapped in self arrest position.  The same fate befalls unconscious climber as situation with knotted rope, with the added problem arresting climber cannot go for help).

I think each of us who choose to travel to the mountains, skiing/climbing, especially in small teams assume a certain amount of risk.  Each of us decide what we think the greater risk is on any given trip and how best to mitigate them.  Person A, may be more concerned with arresting a fall, Person B may be concerned more with being rescued if unable to prussik out after a fall.

Ideally we can say a party of 3 is safter than a party of 2, and that removes the need for knots, yet a 3rd person is not always available.  Additionally after its all said an done, we are all unroping to ski down, how much added risk are we assuming when we do that?  Every year we hear about unroped skiers skiing into crevasses.

I guess we can all think of a million hypothetical scenarios and how best to respond to them, and there is no single way to approach each scenario.  However, it is interesting to debate the pros and cons of each method...

Sucks about the lady who fell into the "waterfall".  Sounds miserable.

author=James Wells link=topic=21155.msg90580#msg90580 date=1308110305]
A possibly mitigating factor - infrequently used prusiks have a tendency to slip down a rope especially if they are not sized correctly with respect to the main rope (the prusiks need to be a little smaller).  Knots in the main rope could make it harder to go up but reduce the risk of slipping down.

I have a friend who had his prusiks slip out of control down a pit (in a cave) and was injured on landing.  What makes it worse is that if you reflexively grip the knot, you can hold it open, which is what I recall happened.  Prusiks have been replaced almost across the board for use in caves by mechanical ascenders that don't generally have this problem; I think that prusiks are still used widely in crevasse kits only because mechanical ascenders weigh too much.

THE KLIEMHIEST KNOT (sp?):  I think that this is far superior to prussik knots in that if you SET UP PROPERLY  (with a little practice like two minutes..) you can ascend anything wet or dry--webbing or chord...experiment first to see how cool it can be..


author=Pierce link=topic=21155.msg90601#msg90601 date=1308150015]

I guess we can all think of a million hypothetical scenarios and how best to respond to them, and there is no single way to approach each scenario.  However, it is interesting to debate the pros and cons of each method...

Sucks about the lady who fell into the "waterfall".  Sounds miserable.


That is true, there are many scenarios.
After the incident this weekend I can't help thinking what I could have done better...the experience has my wheels turning. Sorry if it feels like the thread has been "derailed".
Thanks.

author=TobyT link=topic=21155.msg90597#msg90597 date=1308147992]
Roman, what is your thought process on an unresponsive person in the crevasse?
-Consider this situation,

-You fall in, your partner arrests your fall with the aid of knots. You hit your head on crevasse wall 10' down and are unconscious and stay that way. You are dressed in a light soft shell and become hypothermic. Your partner can't haul you up because there are knots in the rope and doesn't trust the anchors available to hold both of your body weights (to descend to you).


My thought process on the unresponsive hypothermic climber is that she is still better off free-hanging on the rope with her partner on the glacier surface than wedged upside down in the crevasse with her partner wedged next to her.

author=TobyT link=topic=21155.msg90597#msg90597 date=1308147992]
You mention yourself that a crevasse fall is relatively low force. Indeed, many "falls" are stopped by the partner just tensioning the rope and leaning hard. It seems like the "arrest" isn't the issue during a crevasse fall on a glacier, in the spring, when the snow is soft and cracks are smaller.


That is certainly a valid point: I can easily imagine a realistic situation where arresting a crevasse fall is not going to be a problem without the knots.  I can also imagine a situation where the arrest fails even with the knots in the rope.  I can even imagine a situation where I am prusiking up rope after a crevasse fall and swearing at my decision to tie the damn knots that get in my way and make my prusiking even a more miserable experience than it otherwise is.  In other words, I am not saying that the knots are the silver bullet; I'm just saying that I have determined for myself that complicating the rescue is not by itself enough of an overriding factor when deciding against tying the knots.

author=TobyT link=topic=21155.msg90597#msg90597 date=1308147992]
Thanks,
This discussion is food for thought for me. I was involved in a rescue this weekend in which a woman fell into the "waterfall" among the Easton moraines, ice cold water pounding on her from the start. She was in there for over and hour, injured with dislocated/broken bones, hypothermic and unable to assist any of the rescue party. The chopper didn't come for HOURS.


The discussion has generated plenty of food for thought for me as well.  Thanks everybody.

Another point to consider, particularly this time of year, is that the rope will bite deeply into the lip. 

Regardless of whether you have knots or not there is a very significant chance that you will not be able to haul out the victim on the weighted rope due to friction, not to mention the fact the vicitm will get pulled into the lip eventually (I believe there was a fatality in AK resulting from crushing the victim into the snow while attempting to haul them out)

Solution for a team of two, tie in such that you carry more rope than the distance between you.  In event of a fall, build a good anchor, then prepare the lip (knock it down, pad it with your backpack to keep the rope from digging in) for hauling or prusiking on the extra rope.  Modern glacier (short) ropes might result in an uncomfortably close tie in distance.

A good friend and climbing partner who has spent a lot of time on glaciers and had to extract partners from real crevasse falls on multiple occasions claims that they have never been able to haul out on the weighted rope due to the issues described above.

If you plan on this method the stopper knots clearly don't impede your ability to rescue.


Pierre wrote....."Every year we hear about unroped skiers skiing into crevasses."

Do we hear about this every year?  I know the guy died on Rainier (skinning up) but it seems to me that people skiing into crevasses on the way down is a surprising rare to almost non-existent event.



I have done away with the concept of prussiks.  Instead I carry the extra weight of two basic petzl ascenders....and basically use the "cowboy" method.  I found I like the use of the cowboy method of getting out of a potential hole.

Pro:
They are faster to set up when you are in the crevasse.
Mucho easier to set up with gloves on.
They can be used in z pulley and c pulley systems--and work MUCH better, especially if you are alone and hauling out a friend.
They work better on multi types of diameter of ropes--especially the small ones.
No problem with this knot system as you see used above.  Just attach easily and bypass easily

Con:
Heavier
Pricier


Still practice the use of prussiks in case you lose an ascender!

author=dberdinka link=topic=21155.msg90622#msg90622 date=1308165500]
Pierre wrote....."Every year we hear about unroped skiers skiing into crevasses."

Do we hear about this every year?  I know the guy died on Rainier (skinning up) but it seems to me that people skiing into crevasses on the way down is a surprising rare to almost non-existent event.


I would say yes, a quick google search for 2011 (once you get through the most recent Rainier accident) showed the following;

- March 14, 2011 Les Arcs Resort
- March 28, 2011 Tignes, France
- March 9, 2011 Argentiere Glacier,
- March 2, 2011 Swanson Glacier
- March 23, 2010 East Tyrol

As a precentage basis, # of people skiing on glaciers vs crevasse falls, I am sure it is low.  My only point of that statement was I think there is a very real risk when skiing unroped on a glacier, and I am sure falls happen every year, not neccessarily fatal.  I bet if you were to do a similar search for 2010 or 2009 etc, you could find a handful of articles of skiiers falling into crevasses.

I would be interested to find out what the average # is per year?

I don't think the knots are a good idea. Forces are concentrated in knots, which can provide a convenient place for rope failure.

If you rig the ascenders beforehand, you shouldn't have to worry about dropping one.

author=dberdinka link=topic=21155.msg90622#msg90622 date=1308165500]Pierre wrote....."Every year we hear about unroped skiers skiing into crevasses."

Do we hear about this every year?  I know the guy died on Rainier (skinning up) but it seems to me that people skiing into crevasses on the way down is a surprising rare to almost non-existent event.


Summer 2009, probably June 30.  I remember this one really well b/c we had been up to Emmons Flats on June 29 in preparation (sort of) for our July 2/3 summit ski, so my thoughts were:
-- "Must be somewhere else in the world."  Ooops, no, Rainier.
-- "Must be some other route."  No, Emmons Flats.
-- "Must be a climber not a skier."  No, a skier.
-- "Must be someone inexperienced."  No, a park ranger.
Turns out he just skied straight into the crevasse:  not a collapsing snowbridge or a fall with a consequent slide into the crevasse.
TAY thread:
http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboarding/trip_reports/index.php?topic=13757.0

author=CookieMonster link=topic=21155.msg90634#msg90634 date=1308174373]
I don't think the knots are a good idea. Forces are concentrated in knots, which can provide a convenient place for rope failure.


Out of curiosity, what method of attaching yourself to a rope do you use that doesn't involve knots?

perhaps a good middle ground would simply be one knot in the center of the rope. it stops the catastrophic case while allowing the fallen climber to prusik up (if possible). also allows for easier z-pulley setup.

CM: seems like with a crevasse fall, the forces to the rope are nowhere near as large as a leader fall on rock; therefore, the strength reduction from a knot should be irrelevant. right?

author=Roman Rodyakin link=topic=21155.msg90648#msg90648 date=1308186807]Out of curiosity, what method of attaching yourself to a rope do you use that doesn't involve knots?


I was referring to the extra knots. Of course you have to tie in with a knot. For the record, I wasn't criticising you at all. My preference would be for zero additional knots, but that doesn't mean you can't use additional knots if you prefer.

author=iron link=topic=21155.msg90651#msg90651 date=1308189524]
perhaps a good middle ground would simply be one knot in the center of the rope. it stops the catastrophic case while allowing the fallen climber to prusik up (if possible). also allows for easier z-pulley setup.

CM: seems like with a crevasse fall, the forces to the rope are nowhere near as large as a leader fall on rock; therefore, the strength reduction from a knot should be irrelevant. right?


Good to see you around these parts Iron!

With respect to forces... in theory, forces will be less if:

A.)  the rope system is used properly ( minimal slack )
B.)  the dynamics of the fall do not apply a sharp impulse load to the rope system.

Whether or not this actually happens depends entirely on the specifics of the situation... fall factor ... all that good stuff. In a primarily horizontal scenario, I would certainly expect falling to generate less force. I was taught to use as few knots as possible, because there's less to get wrong and fewer points for the rope to fail.

***

I spend a lot of time writing and thinking about avalanches, but crevasse falls really are my worst nightmare.

Wow - this thread is getting really scary.  I am reading some really dumb stuff out there guys!  Don't believe everything you read.  If you do then come out with us on some body recoveries and learn the truth.  Has anyone ever heard of a knot stopping someone from falling in a crevasse?  And are you serious in using the example of traveling on a glacier with a partner that doesn't know how to set up a pulley system?  And if you are taking the time to rope up then why are your prusiks in your pocket?  All these are invitations for serious trouble.  Maybe we need to have some classes out on the glacier.  I can give you examples of each one where someone didn't come home from doing it wrong.  It truly is amazing how many people escape harm when they get off the mountain but that doesn't mean they should be repeating those bad practices each time.  Sooner or later you will get burned.
Don't let a knotted line be an excuse for poor glacier skills.  Spend some time practicing both in catching a fall on a little slope.  Have a skier jump down a short, steep section with a safe run out and practice catching him and then transferring the load to an anchor you set up while under the victim’s tensioned line.  You should always have your prusiks attached to the rope and you just clip them onto the anchor.
It doesn't matter if you use prusiks or mechanical ascenders for ascending a rope but don't be using mechanical ascenders to catch a fall.  Every type of mechanical ascender has been shown to cut the rope during falls.  Prusiks work fine in mud, snow and ice.  Just be sure to tie and use them correctly.  If you are using prusiks then practice with them.  With the correct technique you can almost keep up with someone using mechanical ascenders, but if it is your first time it can be extremely tiring going straight up a rope, not to mention in a crevasse with a pack, upside down, in the dark and all banged up.
Be safe out there.

This is a very informative thread.  Good effort and high-fives to your big day.
It may be worth pointing out the biggest success, knots or no knots:
They stayed out of crevasses.
It's like a beacon, shovel and probe:  always carry, never need.

Great thread, and compliments to Old Guy.

This is how I picture the rescue scenario of just two climbers:

Use a 50m-60m rope and coil the last 25-30% of each end around each climber. This puts you at a safe distance to one another and allows for enough rope at the end to assist in the rescue. Each climber has prussiks attached to the rope with the ends in your harness. Now, climber 1 falls in and climber 2 arrests the fall.

Climber 2 will be able to hold climber 1 while he pulls the picket from his pack and hammers it in. He then attaches the prussiks to the anchor and slowly eases the weight onto the prussiks. Once the prussiks are confirmed to be holding, you build your second, or backup anchor with more prussiks.

Now, climber 2 ropes into the free end and self belays to the edge of the crevasse. One reason is to check on climber 1 and also to prepare the lip of the crevasse. Then climber 2 goes and sets up a 6:1 z pulley system. A 3:1 will not provide enough benefit to lift.

Once the pulley system has been set up, you should be able to pull the climber out of the crevasse, as long as you do not have knots in that rope. If you only have one rope, and you plan on using pulleys, there is no way you could make it work with knots in it.

At least, this is how I learned it, but thank heavens have not yet had to use it. It seems to be simple and effective.

Here is a video of a 6:1 back to back z pulley setup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pui6h27ic_U&feature=related

If climber 1, who is in the crevasse, isn't hurt and can start ascending the rope then climber two can prepare the edge as Stuckdog mentioned.  You can take the loose end of the rope and toss down to climber 1 to switch over to in order to come over the edge since his rope will be buried.  If he is injured and you are pulling him up with a pulley system then when he reaches the point where the rope is buried into the edge then take the tail end of the rope which will now have all the slack and lower it down to him for him to transfer to in order to get over the lip.
On a crappy low visibility day during the winter it is easy to find a wind lip with a 10 to 15 foot vertical wall where one person can jump off with skis while the partner practices catching him.  Then race to see who can either set up an anchor or ascend up the rope first.  It is good to practice taking off your skis and pack while hanging vertically and clipping them to a teather.  Each person should be very proficient with this so when they are trying to ascend out of a crevasse with a separated shoulder they aren't just dropping all their gear into the abyss.
Always practice so you don't need it.

Skip the ascenders; skip the prusiks; USE THE KLIEMHIEST KNOT (sp.?).

Don't tie in--use two ' biners opposite and apposed..you may need to get  the rope off so you can set up z and c pulley systems etc....also, make sure when you anchor the weighted rope, you can release it easily from the anchor, but make sure the easily released knot to the anchor is backed up in case in accidentally released ("too easily").

If had lots of knots in the rope, it would be virtually impossible to adjust the z, c pulley system..(talking about a head ache).

In the case of  rock climbing-- tying two ropes together to reach the next station with an overhand knot ( I prefer a figure 8 on a bite..) is used because when you pull the rope, there is less chance of the knot getting jammed in a cracked (seems to flow past more safely than say a double fishermans knot).  Seems analogous to the knot going over the lip of crevasse...don't think it is going to do much worthwhile and at the expense of interfering with the  setting up and using the c and  z pulley systems.

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june-12-mt-baker-easton-glacier
Roman Rodyakin
2011-06-13 22:38:05