Field repair of pulled bindings

reports of bindings pulling out seem on the increase. On long trips this could a real problem. Drilling new holes for remounting in the field can be done (rather slowly) with "the Mountin Tool" which weighs an once or two, comes in a film canister, and is sold by Marmot in Bellevue.

pic of Mountin Tool here: www.flickr.com/photos/wotanofballard/5825997236/in/photostream

I've always had good luck with duct tape or athletic tape for downhill mode. I've done this 3 times in the backcountry. Touring mode is lost, which could be a big deal on a long traverse.

I'll have to check out that kit. Thanks!

These days I carry a "snowboard tool" along with a Posi-Drive tip, hex driven drill bit (like that shown in the kit) along with some extra screws, steel wool, 5 minute epoxy, a collection of zip ties, some T-Nuts and matching screws and a small coil of "electric fence" wire. I wrap a 1/2 inch thickness of duct tape in two places on each ski pole just below the handle (which also makes a useful "choke up" hand hold) The "snowboard tool" is ratcheted and has a comfy grip -- so if I ever did have to drill some holes it would be less tedious and easier on the wrists. The T=Nuts are the ultimate ripped out screws repair and have the advantage of not having to relocate the binding.

Funny thing is, the last time I field repaired my own gear was maybe ten years ago when I was still skiing on 3 pins mounted straight on the ski -- since I switch bindings with a four or more hole mounting pattern -- the repair kit has only come out to fix my companions bindings.

I've have busted other gear since then -- but only lift skiing -- where I ski faster, go off jumps and other stupid things and thus crash much more frequently.

A friend recently showed me a photo of a Dynafit toe reattached using a large hose clamp. Several people have posted pictures of repairs using Voile straps.

If you don't lose the screws when the toe-piece pulls out, it seems like you could reinsert them in the stripped holes and then use some sort of clamp or strap to hold the binding down. Even with the holes stripped, the screws ought to keep the binding from shifting around, which is the key thing that a strap/clamp can't do as well.

So, I've been thinking that strapping/clamping, with maybe a few extra screws available, might be the best field repair method, since it should be a lot quicker than drilling new holes. I've added more strapping/clamping elements to my repair kit. I hope I never need them.

I took the hose clamps I bought the other day and tried to see how to make them work. The photos below show the best arrangement I came up with. If anybody else has a better scheme, I'd be eager to hear it. If you pre-bend the hose clamp as shown below, this fix is very quick to apply.

The Tools:


Hose clamp before and after custom fitting to my ski:


Basic repair - hose clamp only:


Deluxe repair - hose clamp plus Voile strap:


If the boot fits - ski it!


This fix assumes that you didn't lose the screws, so you can screw them back in the stripped holes to keep the binding from sliding around.

I like the idea of using hose clamps because the ski edge won't cut them, but I'm not sure it's really that much of a problem.

I tried using a hose clamp for the rear hold-down, but could not figure out how to make it fit well using the clamps that I bought.

I wouldn't be surprised if the single hose clamp alone would get you home, but I haven't tested it.

Though it looks like the hose clamp should prevent the binding from opening, it doesn't. I can still click the boot in and out of the binding with the clamp in place.

This advice is worth what you paid for it! 

Extra srcews are a mandatory item in my kit. I carry a couple couple mini hose clamps and a 4 " piece of slotted ski pole for pole repairs. Looks like a I better carry a radiator hose sized clamp now !

I already carry a voile strap and another strap and the  Brooks Range multitool   that is quite handy, but that big clamp is now on my list (actually 2 of them, for different size skis).

How about 5min epoxy in the old holes? Carrying some slightly larger diameter screws in the repair kit might be a good idea too.

This is the model of a 5/32" hex-driven drill bit I was able to find in the local Home Depot:
www.ryobitools.com/catalog/accessories/d...g_and_driving/AR2050
I tried drilling a test hole on an old ski -- absurdly slow, but would eventually work.
(And of course for most spring & summer tours, would be faster just to walk down in dejected defeat rather than spend forever with a field repair. After all, that's how climbers get down on every tour -- our worst-case gear nightmare is their baseline experience!)

I can see skiing down on the metal hose clamp but I would think the voile strap would hang up below the ski/ get cut by the edges/ rip off and cause your attached toe to come off and cause a crash. Granted in a pinch it would be better than nothing and I would try it as well but the idea of epoxy and new OVER SIZED screws makes more sense to me. Keep in mind that 5min epoxy is not fully hard after 5min but merely set up. It still takes hrs to cure fully.

Also the idea of drilling and placing t nuts through the base seems like a plausible idea. Although it would take some time to drill through the ski and your ski would be pretty trash afterward (although you could re sink the t nuts deeper and build ptex over them back home).

I'm newer than I thought here but how are people breaking the bindings off the skis? Were they miss mounted in the first place? Is it only the toe? I've seen this in bounds before but never back country (aside from pros)

I like Lowell's hose clamp idea.

I think I'll get one or two to carry as a backup to my primary screw hole repair solution, MR GRIP .


(more info on Mr. Grip HERE ).

I've used Mr Grip with great success before to make fast and permanent repairs to stripped and oversized screw holes not only on skis but many other applications as well. It is nothing more that thin metal with perforations on both sides (like a two sided roughing tool for an inner tube repair kit). You cut thin strips (less than 1/8th of an inch wide for binding screw holes) of this material the length of the screw hole (I try to get 3 strips into the screw hole if possible) and stick them down into the screw hole and then reinsert the screws. So along with a Mr Grip strip or two I carry extra screws and a small pair of shears to cut the thin strips of Mr Grip perforated metal and then cut them to the length of the screw hole.

I honestly believe, based on my experiences so far, that the Mr. Grip fix would be almost as fast as the hose clamp, and (of course, if it works) would have the obvious advantage of not going under the base of the ski. I also carry a couple of those huge zip ties (most of you know the ones I’m talking about – the ones the cops use for handcuffs ) which might also be a useful option.

I'm newer than I thought here but how are people breaking the bindings off the skis? Were they miss mounted in the first place? Is it only the toe? I've seen this in bounds before but never back country (aside from pros)

There were several TRs recently that mentioned Dynafit toe pieces being pulled out. I can't remember which TRs they were. Always the toe piece. I believe one was on a Dynafit ski with inserts (which can be munged if you install them carelessly). Another was in a ski that had rotted out due to water damage. Another was in a TR emailed to me that was never posted. Anybody remember more details?

My theory is that the problem has increased as manufacturers have built skis that are both wide and reasonably lightweight. Having recently bought some new wider/lighter skis, I've decided to head out prepared to deal with this.

As a former tech, one of the best tricks I had learned was to carry some extra tele screws. Since the diameter and thread pitch are usually fatter and "toothier", in a pinch you can aggressivly bore them back into the holes (so long as the wood of the core is not completely rotted).

Also as mentioned: hose clamps, zip ties, baling wire and any other key small parts specific to your bindings. Your basic MacGyver kit.

[. . .] tele screws. Since the diameter and thread pitch are usually fatter and "toothier" [. . . ]

Perhaps "back in the day" but not now.

In general though, I think we are to blame for this too. I mean, if a cyclist posted on a bike forum about a fastener coming undone after years of riding without ever checking the tightness of key fasteners, we'd all think that was ridiculous. But how many of us regularly check to see if all our binding screws are tight?

There were several TRs recently that mentioned Dynafit toe pieces being pulled out. I can't remember which TRs they were. Always the toe piece. I believe one was on a Dynafit ski with inserts (which can be munged if you install them carelessly). Another was in a ski that had rotted out due to water damage. Another was in a TR emailed to me that was never posted. Anybody remember more details?

My theory is that the problem has increased as manufacturers have built skis that are both wide and reasonably lightweight. Having recently bought some new wider/lighter skis, I've decided to head out prepared to deal with this.

Why would wider, lighter skis be a factor? Lighter wouldn't in my mind except that they may not have the metal layer in them to help and the wood could be lighter. Wider, maybe more torque on the ski? I doubt this is a factor. I would be interested to know how many of these ripped out binding toes were self installed instead of tech installed. As a former tech, I saw some skis that were done at home that probably shouldn't have been skied at all.

Perhaps "back in the day" but not now.

In general though, I think we are to blame for this too.  I mean, if a cyclist posted on a bike forum about a fastener coming undone after years of riding without ever checking the tightness of key fasteners, we'd all think that was ridiculous.  But how many of us regularly check to see if all our binding screws are tight?

It's why you have to hoard old G3 Targa screw sets.

Why would wider, lighter skis be a factor? Lighter wouldn't in my mind except that they may not have the metal layer in them to help and the wood could be lighter. Wider, maybe more torque on the ski? I doubt this is a factor. I would be interested to know how many of these ripped out binding toes were self installed instead of tech installed. As a former tech, I saw some skis that were done at home that probably shouldn't have been skied at all.

Lighter skis are using less/no metal for the mounting area, lower-density wood, thinner fiberglass, etc, so I'd bet that could be a factor.  I'd also bet that user-installs and ski-fatigue/core-rot (as was the case with Amar's issue) are a bigger factor.

I tore out the mounts on a pair of Insanes (twice) and Kailas, both of which were shop mounted, one of them with helicoils.  These were the back screws on a tele binding though, so a different amount/kind of force on the mounting.

As a tele skier, folks are always telling me that I've got a few screws loose.  It's all very curious, since I check them regularly...  

And Marcus, I've got the white, flat deck Insanes and I've been watching them closely. 7tm Tours, 3.5mm holes, Titebond wood glue, firm hand. I hope they never budge cause I like those skis a lot.

Good ideas here.  This is what these forums are all about.

-Dave

And Marcus, I've got the white, flat deck Insanes and I've been watching them closely.  7tm Tours, 3.5mm holes, Titebond wood glue, firm hand.  I hope they never budge cause I like those skis a lot.

That's the EXACT ski and set-up that did it to me. I was skiing them with T1s and both tearouts (original mount and helicoil repair) were while skiing inbounds (second run and first run, respectively).

I changed up to Insanes with inserts and used an adapter between the deck and the 7TM binding with good success for a while. Have since moved on to the NTN on that ski with no problems, but the NTN mount (frame breakage aside) is pretty beefy.

Why would wider, lighter skis be a factor? Lighter wouldn't in my mind except that they may not have the metal layer in them to help and the wood could be lighter. Wider, maybe more torque on the ski?

Wider = longer lever when edging or bashing hard stuff.  And, yes, some lighter cores exclude metal or carbon binding plates.

zeno published results of extensive pullout tests on ttips.  I recall that an ABS screw in a grossly oversize hole filled with epoxy had a pullout strength similar to that of a properly torqued screw in a proper size hole.  Of course, that might vary greatly across the range of different core construction.  zeno also acknowledged that he was testing pretty fresh stuff and his tests did not take fatigue factors into play, nor did it test for forces other than tensile. Most ski binding screw blowouts involve some shear forces. zeno's tests are nonetheless the best data I've seen.

ron j, that Mr. Grip stuff looks interesting.  Many people stuff fiberglass or steel wool with epoxy in a blown out hole

I've killed bindings 5 times in the last 5 years. Only once have I actually ripped the binding from the ski (that was a DH binding in bounds). The other 4 times the AT binding has failed at a pivot or other weak point.

I though I'd read about a surprisingly high number of people having had problems with dynafits ripping out of K2 skis. A ski partner had that happen last year with coombas that had only been skied on a few times. I think there's a thread on TGR to this effect, but i'm feeling lazy so you'll have to search yourself.

bottom line as with biking, motorsports or anything mechanical:
expect failure to happen.

Last January I got to chase after a friend's Manaslu after his Dynafit toe piece ejected from the ski -- the screws were still firmly attached to the factory inserts -- but the inserts had separated from the ski.

I like Lowell's hose clamp idea -- simple and straightforward and less work than boring holes through the ski for T-nuts and a better chance of a successful home repair of the ski afterwards.

I though I'd read about a surprisingly high number of people having had problems with dynafits ripping out of K2 skis.  A ski partner had that happen last year with coombas that had only been skied on a few times.

No doubt about it: some K2 cores have soft spots.  I hit so many soft spots on my AP's (Coombas with tele inserts, but I Dynafitted them) that I helicoiled every hole in both skis.  No kidding.  I've mounted several other Coombas/AP's/Coombacks and hit soft spots on every ski, some more than others, installing between 2 and 9 (all) screw holes.

But how many of us regularly check to see if all our binding screws are tight?

Me! And I check my bud's binding screws, tech boot fittings, Dyna rear fixture top sheet screws, etc., and I also retie rap runners, etc.

No doubt about it: some K2 cores have soft spots. I hit so many soft spots on my AP's (Coombas with tele inserts, but I Dynafitted them) that I helicoiled every hole in both skis. No kidding. I've mounted several other Coombas/AP's/Coombacks and hit soft spots on every ski, some more than others, installing between 2 and 9 (all) screw holes.

yikes.
I haven't used helicoil screws before. Is that something that could be done in the field with minimal gear or do you need some beefier equip to get those screws in?

Cautions abound about being very careful mounting Dynafit bindings to Dynafit inserts (see Wildsnow for no end of discussion). Lou Dawson is adamant that epoxy must be used to prevent water infiltration. Others have pointed out that not all expoxys are waterproof. The techs at Marmot told me they don't use epoxys or glues. Dynafit instructions say go to an approved Dynafit dealer but say nothing about using expoxys or glues. I used JB Weld (!) to install my Freerides on my R:EX (by mistake , but it turns out JB Weld produces a strong bond; I don't think it is waterproof). I mounted my Vertical STs on my Manaslus with 3-hr epoxy (but had not yet heard some aren't waterproof) and I paid extra special attention to not cranking down on the screws in the inserts. Lou suggests prethreading before going thru the binding and reaming out binding holes if they are too tight. I just ordered some binding glue from Tognar that is supposed to be waterproof.

My Dynafit skis all have some metal topsheet in the mounting area; my Atomic R:EX have a metal layer. I ripped tele bindings out of my Volkl Prestos three times despite have voile releases--they were foam core.

I think boots are getting bigger and stiffer and skiers are going further, higher, and coming down faster than ever in the backcountry. I think things can stressed to the extreme and get worn out quickly (I don't know because I go low and slow).

AC, are you certain R:EX's have a metal binding plate?  I thought they were Texalium caps over foam.  I've mounted several R:EX and TMX and never noticed any metal (other than the microscopically thin Al film on the Texalium).  The Kongur is the same ski with an Mg alloy cap.  Anyway, I've never seen a ripout on any of those skis.

I agree with Lou re tapping all ski cores, metal top sheet or not.  I think GregL is with me on that.  Tapping allows better penetration of epoxy into the core material  and helps one avoid overtorquing the screws.  zeno's pullout tests also seem to confirm that tapped holes are better (and also seems to favor epoxy).  I now use long set epoxy on all Dynafit mounts.

That's the EXACT ski and set-up that did it to me. I was skiing them with T1s and both tearouts (original mount and helicoil repair) were while skiing inbounds (second run and first run, respectively).

I changed up to Insanes with inserts and used an adapter between the deck and the 7TM binding with good success for a while. Have since moved on to the NTN on that ski with no problems, but the NTN mount (frame breakage aside) is pretty beefy.

Interesting.  I'm skiing them with Crispi CXPs - a much softer boot - and don't use the "power pin", keeping the binding less "active".  And besides, I ski like Tinkerbell 

-Dave

Let's say you don't have mr grip or epoxy with you . You do have your pocket knife /leatherman
And some source of wood or perhaps plastic maybe golf tees . Just whittle yourself some and plug the whole. Cut flush and drive the screw /screws in. 5 min epoxy even better. In effect a wedge anchor. Ski home.

I've had a pullout failure due to water intrusion too in the past. Also, I've forced lots of other failures with pullout tests that Big Steve referenced in order to learn more. 

A few tips on how to avoid a pullout failure:

1) Mount screws with liberal amounts of properly portioned slow set flexible marine epoxy. West Systems G-Flex is the best in my opinion since it has a compatible strength and stiffness for the application (conditions: freeze-thaw, cyclic loading, flexing ski, etc.). Available for $20 for probably 50+ mounts at West Marine.

2) Do not overtighten screws which will strip the screw thread to ski mechanical bond. It is easy to strip especially in soft (lightweight) wood cores and/or lightweight ski constructions.

3) Watch/check for loose screws. A loose screw means poor connection integrity and a pullout is the next step in the failure process. Go to point #1 and #2 above.


A few other points:

For some reason the need for sealing out water in our region is overlooked by many ski mounting professionals.

If epoxy is against ones religion, a flexible marine sealant will work better as a sealant in a ski application (lots of flex) than a brittle material like waterproof wood glue (e.g. Titebond).

Epoxy comes in many flavors - use a flexible marine version.

Removing epoxied screws is clean and easy. Epoxy has a powerful antidote, which is heat. I use a solder tip on any epoxied stuck screws (usually about 30% of them are “stuck”) and the screws come out like a hot knife through butter.

The advice to use waterproof wood glue (brittle), or no sealant, is really bad advice for our wet skiing environment. Perhaps in a cold and dry climate like Colorado no sealant works fine.

The West System syringes to apply epoxy into holes and/or onto screws and West System fillers to thicken the G-Flex have also worked very well in the garage.