telemark skiingbackcountry skiingPacific NorthwestWashington and Oregonweather linksThe Yuki AwardsMt. Rainier and Mt. Adams
Turns All Year
www.turns-all-year.com
  Help | Search | Login | Register
Turns All Year Trip Reports
Backcountry Skiing and Snowboarding

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
04/29/17, 08:14 PM

Solar Halo over Tahoma
on TAY home page
 
Trip Reports Sponsor
American Alpine Institute
American Alpine Institute
Turns All Year Trip Reports
(1) Viewing these pages constitutes your acceptance of the Terms of Use.
(2) Disclaimer: the accuracy of information here is unknown, use at your own risk.
(3) Trip Report monthly boards: only actual trip report starts a new thread.
(4) Keep it civil and constructive - that is the norm here.
 
FOAC Snow
Info Exchange


NWAC Avalanche
Forecast
+  Turns All Year Trip Reports
|-+  2011 Backcountry Trip Reports
| |-+  May 2011 Backcountry Trip Reports
| | |-+  May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
:
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4  All | Go Down Print
Author Topic: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds  (Read 58012 times)
Scotsman
Member
Offline

Posts: 3388


Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #25 on: 06/02/11, 05:35 PM »

its a long way to climb only to have to cough on engine exhaust and listen to noise pollution.

I realize I am the only dissenting poster in this thread , but no matter...
If I really wanted to avoid engine exhaust and noise pollution ( which I completely understand) I personally would stay away from a route where snowmobiles were legally allowed and probably going to be, especially in the height of snowmobile season. It's a big mountain, go another route or another mountain if they bother you that much while still retaining your right to lobby against them and change the access rules.

Seems to me there is a movement amongst BC skiers to "mix it up" with them and actively seek confrontation. Not sure that is the right approach IMHO. Both parties are going to have to work this out in a respectful manner. Vigilantism is not going to help matters and is as ridiculous as the Minutemen on the AZ/Mex border patrolling with their pseudo military getups and attitude and then boasting on their hateful Munutemen blogs about how many Mexicans they confronted and reported to ICE.

Its certainly going to be difficult for Bc skiers to negotiate with snowmobilers if they call their present access rights a" travesty" ( fighting words doctrine)and in some cases not even recognize their right to exist and have some access to good terrain.

It's like asking an Israeli to negotiate with a group who refuses to accept their right to exist and preaches their destruction, or the Palestinian who can't get the Israeli settler with an AK47 in the Golan Heights to recognize that that was their land as well .  Impasse..and hatred between both groups.
« Last Edit: 06/02/11, 05:58 PM by Scotsman » Logged

Chief Etiquette Officer of TAY and TAY's #1 Poster
Poet Laureate of TAY.
Chairman and Founder of FOTAY( Friends of TAY)
Moderator of the moderators.
"Most Brilliant Move" of the 11/12 ski season
" Knows what he is talking about"
Expert Typist.
Crystal Whore
" Scotsman may be correct"....Mikerolfs
kat_roslyn
Guest


Email
Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #26 on: 06/02/11, 09:32 PM »

Nice Trip Report Amar. Amar, Stephanie Brown, Dave Coleman and Dave Brown , what a great time skiing with you all! So FUN!

To Scotsman: The snowmoers were far out of thier legal boundary, when they were in their legal boundary, there was no complaints or confrontation.
By your argument, we should not ski anywhere in the wilderness at all without expecting 2-stroke fumes. You are wrong.

I like snomo skiing, but not when it is illegal, and not when it opens dangerous cracks and most importantly, GOUGES THE CORN!
I think Amar's main objective is to educate these guys where the boundary actually exists, because they did not know. Good on him, it takes guts.
Logged
Lowell_Skoog
Member
Offline

Posts: 2025


WWW
Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #27 on: 06/02/11, 09:45 PM »

For me the travesty is to pretend that Mt Baker is wilderness when a big slice of it has been handed over to machines. Giving machines free reign on the south side of the mountain is a blight, in my view. Mt Baker is the grandest and most historic mountain in the North Cascades. It should have been set aside as wilderness in total. Some day I hope it will be.

Skiers who feel as I do should absolutely not stop going to the south side of the mountain. Be civil to snowmobilers, but don't give up the mountain to them. Keep them honest, as Amar has done.

I'm not anti-snowmobile. I think they're fine in some places, but I think they don't belong in other places. Mt Baker is one of the places I think they don't belong. Their presence severely degrades the mountain for others.

Here's a picture of a snowmobile on the Deming Glacier on May 23, 1982, during my first ski summit of the mountain with my brother Carl:



Here's a shot looking up at the summit crater that same day:



You could argue that since snowmobiles have been on the mountain since before the wilderness was established they should be grandfathered in. I don't agree. People used to helicopter ski on Mt Baker before the wilderness was established (including me) but that's not allowed anymore. I don't think snowmobiling should be either.
Logged
Amar Andalkar
Member
Offline

Posts: 1198


WWW
Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #28 on: 06/02/11, 09:56 PM »

Nice definition of proto-corn, Scotsman. And I may even agree with some of your points in the post after that, too.

Personally, I realize that I'll encounter snowmobiles anytime I venture up the south side of Baker while it is open to snowmobiling (over 2 ft of snowpack at Schriebers Meadow). I guess I don't mind them too much compared to some people (obviously I don't like snowmo exhaust, but it's no worse than being near a Metro bus starting up from a stop). It's just something that one must currently deal with to access that side of the mountain most of the year. I like the south side and its direct fall-line skiing enough to still go there (from summit dome to meadows, 7000+ vert of direct fall line). My main objections have always been to snowmobilers' illegal dumping of trash everywhere (beer cans, empty cases, broken snowmobile parts, etc) and illegally trespassing into the Wilderness, along with buzzing excessively close to skiers and pedestrians at high speed as a form of overt intimidation.

I do have to agree with Lowell though: I think the south side of Baker would be a LOT nicer in winter and spring if snowmobiles weren't around. I would probably be in favor of restricting them to lower elevations, say below 6000 ft or some other reasonable cutoff that would still allow them to have their fun without overly intruding into the wild and special area higher up.

Snowmobile investigation update: I emailed the map from this TR and several high-resolution photos, along with a description of what occurred, to the USFS law enforcement officer (and to the 3 other USFS employees whom he had cc'ed in his email to me). The next steps are now solidly in their hands.

Logged

ruffryder
Member
Offline

Posts: 128


Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #29 on: 06/03/11, 08:24 AM »

We encountered the totally ignorant attitude (and the rest didn't stop). "I'm just following my buddies." "We're just crossing through." "We were told to steer clear of skiers and be respectful of them." (which they were not). All direct quotes.
Did you have a map to show them and help inform them?
« Last Edit: 06/03/11, 08:45 AM by ruffryder » Logged
sizzling carbides
Guest


Email
Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #30 on: 06/03/11, 08:33 AM »

obviously I don't like snowmo exhaust, but it's no worse than being near a Metro bus starting up from a stop).
 My main objections have always been to snowmobilers' illegal dumping of trash everywhere (beer cans, empty cases, broken snowmobile parts, etc) and illegally trespassing into the Wilderness, along with buzzing excessively close to skiers and pedestrians at high speed as a form of overt intimidation.

I do have to agree with Lowell though: I think the south side of Baker would be a LOT nicer in winter and spring if snowmobiles weren't around. I would probably be in favor of restricting them to lower elevations, say below 6000 ft or some other reasonable cutoff that would still allow them to have their fun without overly intruding into the wild and special area higher up.


Mountain exhaust is pretty strong up there too. I think that BP is the #1 polluter in Whatcom Co. and Sherman Crater is #2.

Amar, I personally saw and picked up various SKIER TRASH (shovel blade, nalgene bottle, wrappers, socks, undergarments, flagging tape, misc. paper products) all along a ski route within a park boundary last weekend. And the TH was a total mess. I also pick up trash at the migrating TH's that I frequent during winter and spring which is left behind by sledders AND skiers.

In the winter, I access and ski the South side of Baker enough to know that skiers are rarely accessing that route unless they have a sled. In fact, this user issue seems to arise every year at the same time, which is when there is reasonable enough access to skin from the car. Please don't put on like you frequent the area throughout a typical winter.

Ironically and unfortunately, during this short period of time when user groups are clashing, it is at the height of Wilderness Boundary poaches by sledders. Deep snowpack, easier travel, nice weather, people coming from all over because this is one of the last places to sled in the State, who don't know where the boundaries are. A little snowmobiler education, maybe a large map at the Creek crossing could have been your first thoughts. Instead, your expressed thoughts are to restrict the freedoms of others for your benefit.

This winter I was on Baker skiing alone, just me, my skis, and my sled. Then out of nowhere, a plane buzzed me up in that area I consider sacred, wild and special, the SKY. (sorry, had to do it).
Logged
ruffryder
Member
Offline

Posts: 128


Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #31 on: 06/03/11, 08:34 AM »

My main objections have always been to snowmobilers' illegal dumping of trash everywhere (beer cans, empty cases, broken snowmobile parts, etc) and illegally trespassing into the Wilderness,
very good points, especially the trash.  I HATE PEOPLE LITTERING.  God damn it pisses me off.  Seriously, pack your fricken trash out.

along with buzzing excessively close to skiers and pedestrians at high speed as a form of overt intimidation.
Have you ever ridden a snowmobile?  Just curious.

Mt. Baker is a different form of riding as you are always on a fall line and the mountain is always pulling you down the mountain.  Sometimes it is difficult to change direction on the hill after you have started, without being forced to go back down again.  Just some thoughts, as what you might think about as intimidation might be a snowmobiler going "Where did this guy come from? Where did my friends go?  I hope they don't leave me.  How am I going to get by this guy and not screw up? I don't want to get sucked down into that hole.  I can't go to slowly either as I won't be able to get up the hill and have to go near the guy again and bother him."

Just a different perspective.  Like in skiing, not everyone is a pro.
« Last Edit: 06/03/11, 08:43 AM by ruffryder » Logged
Amar Andalkar
Member
Offline

Posts: 1198


WWW
Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #32 on: 06/03/11, 09:15 AM »

Have you ever ridden a snowmobile?  Just curious.

Mt. Baker is a different form of riding as you are always on a fall line and the mountain is always pulling you down the mountain.  Sometimes it is difficult to change direction on the hill after you have started, without being forced to go back down again.  Just some thoughts, as what you might think about as intimidation might be a snowmobiler going "Where did this guy come from? Where did my friends go?  I hope they don't leave me.  How am I going to get by this guy and not screw up? I don't want to get sucked down into that hole.  I can't go to slowly either as I won't be able to get up the hill and have to go near the guy again and bother him."

Just a different perspective.  Like in skiing, not everyone is a pro.

I've ridden on a snowmobile once, as a passenger, in March of this year: March 7, 2011, MRNP, Sarvant Glacier, Tamanos Mtn

I have no snowmobile hate. I have even considered purchasing a snowmobile for the last several years, but the main issue is that I have no free space to store it (I live in a condo, and have a single parking spot). Once that is solved, I would probably acquire one, to use primarily for long road approaches, as I have no interest in recreational snowmobiling.

The "buzzing excessively close to skiers and pedestrians at high speed as a form of overt intimidation" occurs primarily along the road, and I've also experienced it on several other forest roads in WA and OR. It is just common courtesy to slow down as you pass pedestrians or skiers to avoid scaring or spraying them (just as you'd slow a car when passing pedestrians on a gravel or dirt road), and most do slow or pass reasonably, except the few obnoxious jackasses who intentionally hit the gas.


Please don't put on like you frequent the area throughout a typical winter.

Not sure why you think I'm claiming that. I'll go into the south side in winter if road conditions allow, like a summit ski descent last March when the road was open closer to the trailhead than it is now.

A little snowmobiler education, maybe a large map at the Creek crossing could have been your first thoughts. Instead, your expressed thoughts are to restrict the freedoms of others for your benefit.

Actually, that was one of my first thoughts, that the USFS should put up a large map at the creek crossing showing the wilderness boundary. My next thought was that it would probably get vandalized and shot to pieces in no time, given its location at the trailhead.

My attempts at snowmobiler education (trying to show them the boundary on the map and point out the landmarks delineating it) worked with only 1 out of 6 snowmobilers in this case -- clearly not a good reflection on snowmobilers' willingness to learn.

My thoughts are absolutely not to restrict anyone's freedom for MY benefit, but restricting certain people's freedom for everyone's overall benefit is necessary in any organized society.

« Last Edit: 06/03/11, 09:31 AM by Amar Andalkar » Logged

ruffryder
Member
Offline

Posts: 128


Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #33 on: 06/03/11, 09:56 AM »

but restricting certain people's freedom for everyone's overall benefit is necessary in any organized society.
How many people use the south side of Mt. Baker for snowmobiling vs skiing in the winter?

What is your definition of everyone?
Logged
Gregg_C
Member
Offline

Posts: 343


Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #34 on: 06/03/11, 12:00 PM »

I second Lowell's comments. I also appreciate Amar for making a point of informing the boundary to the sledders he encountered.  Now he gets to have people start attacking him for his "attitude" and hinted elitism for simply wanting people to abide by the law.  A couple of points I would like to make here:

Making vieled attackes and meaningless arguments doesn't take away from the flagrant violation of a wilderness area.  I don't find comments about planes to be cute and relevant.

In 30 plus years I have yet to see a skier generated pile of trash in the mountains.  I must be going to the wrong places.  But I predict with 100 percent certainty that on my annual trip up the Easton in a few weeks I will find lots of snowmobile generated trash--both in the parking lot and on the upper mountain.


Poaching is a  problem on Mt. Baker.   I watched three sleds high up on the Easton past the boundary on April 22 while summiting Baker.  On the North side, snowboarders and skiers are ignoring the boundary near Heliotrope throughtout the winter.

Great trip report Amar. 


Logged
yammadog
Member
Offline

Posts: 145


Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #35 on: 06/03/11, 01:19 PM »


Skiers who feel as I do should absolutely not stop going to the south side of the mountain. Be civil to snowmobilers, but don't give up the mountain to them. Keep them honest, as Amar has done.


Lowell is dead on in the idea of keeping sledders honest! We have been working hard on our side of the line to call out violators and make these types of encounters history. Outside of emergency situations there is no reason for sledders to be in wilderness. And outside of ignorance, which we are trying to change, then the violators should be held accountable to the n'th degree of the law.

Whether or not we agree on where sleds should or shouldn't be allowed, once the line is established then it should be followed.

Baker is a grand place to ride and I get up there several times a year, but I've not been above to the crevass areas since a friend fell thru, luckily he's alive, but to me, once was enough and  the risk is too high.

Great TR and picts.
Logged
Lowell_Skoog
Member
Offline

Posts: 2025


WWW
Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #36 on: 06/03/11, 01:30 PM »

Snowmobiles around Mt Baker should be restricted to the roads.  If you can drive to a place in summer, I don't have a problem with snowmobiles going there in winter.  Conversely, if you can't drive there in summer, I don't think you should be snowmobiling there in winter.  I won't argue that this rule needs to apply everywhere, but I think it should apply around Mt Baker.

Arguments about "restricting other people's freedom" don't impress me.  Maybe I'd like to fish the Nooksack River using dynamite.  Should I be free to do that?  I don't think so.  There's no fundamental right to drive machines in the mountains.
Logged
sizzling carbides
Guest


Email
Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #37 on: 06/03/11, 02:03 PM »

Snowmobiles around Mt Baker should be restricted to the roads.  If you can drive to a place in summer, I don't have a problem with snowmobiles going there in winter.  Conversely, if you can't drive there in summer, I don't think you should be snowmobiling there in winter.  I won't argue that this rule needs to apply everywhere, but I think it should apply around Mt Baker.

Arguments about "restricting other people's freedom" don't impress me.  Maybe I'd like to fish the Nooksack River using dynamite.  Should I be free to do that?  I don't think so.  There's no fundamental right to drive machines in the mountains.
Lowell, if it is within the law, then it seems to me to be OK. What about that don't you get? If it was legal to fish with dynamite, then it would be OK for people to choose to fish that way.
The vehicle you question having the "right" to be in the mountains is called a "snowmobile". These travel on snow. These snowmobiles come in certain models called "mountain sleds". These models are meant to be used in the mountains.
You implied that Mt. Baker is more sacred than other mtn's. and that you would be OK with snowmobiles going off of the road elsewhere, but not at Mt. Baker. To me, this is just ridiculous. Is it because you skied a nice line there??? Because it's the highest peak in the vicinity?Huh Because it has "history"Huh
Arguments to restrict peoples freedom to do what is legal to do don't impress me. To cut back the boundary would restrict the freedom to ride a mountain snowmobile on a mountain, which has been OK as per the law since the 80's.

Skier trash is everywhere Gregg. Come visit my garbage can and I can show you.
My points were perceived by myself as relevant, that is why I took the time to post them. Sorry if I don't think like you do. Nothing was meant as an attack.

« Last Edit: 06/03/11, 02:23 PM by sizzling carbides » Logged
yammadog
Member
Offline

Posts: 145


Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #38 on: 06/03/11, 02:49 PM »

Snowmobiles around Mt Baker should be restricted to the roads.  If you can drive to a place in summer, I don't have a problem with snowmobiles going there in winter.  Conversely, if you can't drive there in summer, I don't think you should be snowmobiling there in winter.  I won't argue that this rule needs to apply everywhere, but I think it should apply around Mt Baker.


We can certainly agree to disagree...but just for fun, let's apply your logic to skiers. Mt. Rainier...hike on the trail in the summer, ski the trail in the winter.....oh, btw, no sleds at all on rainier, a majority of baker, adams and st. helens...heck let's just say most of the alpine areas of washington. As for the roads, those are even being locked up and claimed as defacto wilderness....so then, no sleds on those either?

The problem with zealous opinion is just that....no room for improvement, which leaves no room for anyone but yourself.

I think focusing on respecting others and the areas we recreate in are the topics that need to be addressed and will help in the elimination of "conflicts".

Sorry to pull this further off track. How much snow was at the bathrooms at the turn off for scheibers?

Logged
ebeam
Member
Offline

Posts: 123


Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #39 on: 06/03/11, 03:37 PM »

This has been an interesting and useful TR - the actual trip and the sled discussion.

I appreciate some of the sledders describing how sled travel actually works. That helps me to understand certain behaviors and hopefully helps me not to jump to conclusions about intent (e.g., intimidation or not). Sledders and skiers often do have different perspectives and that can block solutions to conflicts if we don't understand each other. I also caution whether you can have real communication through a forum such as this. In person is much better.

To me, the main issue regarding sleds on Baker (or any boundary line issue for different user groups) has to do with following the existing rules. I've climbed Baker 3 times this winter/spring and have observed sled poaching only once (north side). Last year, with the lack of low elevation snow, I was up on Baker many more times during mid-winter because access was so easy and sled poaching seemed common in the Heliotrope area. My personal opinion is that respecting the wilderness boundary is a problem.

Better education of boundaries per uses will solve the problem for those people wanting to follow the rules. And, my experience suggests most people fit that category. Nothing but stronger enforcement (and natural consequences) stops people that disregard the rules. We should follow Amar's example and try to educate - don't avoid the issue when the opportunity presents itself.

Logged
ruffryder
Member
Offline

Posts: 128


Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #40 on: 06/03/11, 03:47 PM »

Better education of boundaries per uses will solve the problem for those people wanting to follow the rules. And, my experience suggests most people fit that category.

I would add that making these issues known to the rest of the sledding groups would be a help as well.  I have done quite a bit of riding on Mt. Baker, and did not know a bunch of the information that has been listed here.  I don't ride up by the top at all, mostly stay down in the middle areas.

Anyone have more specific information on the Heliotrope area?  Maybe start a new thread and we will make sure snowmobilers are aware of the specific issues.  I have heard of Heliotrope, but I am not sure where it is, and did not know that snowmobilers try to access this area.

Something to remember is that wilderness poachers don't preach about their actions, so unless other snowmobilers see it, it is difficult to find out.
« Last Edit: 06/03/11, 04:06 PM by ruffryder » Logged
rocubr
5Member
Offline

Posts: 28


Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #41 on: 06/03/11, 05:17 PM »

http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=270253

Just in case you wanted to know what the snowmobilers think...

"Don't engage skiers. They only want to rat you out."

"As far as I'm concerned, until I see a land use sticker on their skis that they pay for, like I have to, they don't have room for complaints."

Is this the impression we want to be making on them? It's obvious that the boundary is unclear to them, and though it IS 100% illegal, it would be nice if we would both be a bit more understanding. I don't see an ambiguous boundary, I see a culture clash.

Logged
Lowell_Skoog
Member
Offline

Posts: 2025


WWW
Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #42 on: 06/03/11, 05:40 PM »

Lowell, if it is within the law, then it seems to me to be OK. What about that don't you get?

I respect the right of snowmobilers to use the south slopes of Mt Baker as allowed by the law. I have no interest in trying to convince them to do otherwise. By all means, enjoy yourselves (legally).

What I was trying to say is that I disagree with the law. I think it was a mistake to take a slice out of the Mt Baker wilderness when it was established in 1984. I think the non-wilderness slice should be converted to wilderness. Imagine a similar slice chopped out of Mt Rainier National Park that included the Muir snowfield, the Interglacier, or Spray Park. I would consider that a mistake that needs to be fixed. That's the way I feel about the slice taken out of Mt Baker.

Some day I expect this issue to be revisited by Congress. I'm just declaring where I stand on it.
« Last Edit: 06/03/11, 08:09 PM by Lowell_Skoog » Logged
jwplotz
Member
Offline

Posts: 416


Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #43 on: 06/04/11, 08:09 PM »

Why aren't there wilderness incursions by dirt bike riders up to Colchuck Lake or Mt. Stuart, with them claiming they had no idea dirtbikes weren't allowed back there? My guess would be there's a hell of a lot less tolerance for something like that, on both sides of the coin.

Why is it incumbant on the skier to, "educate the sledders" about wilderness boundaries?
Logged
1200cc
1Member
Offline

Posts: 2


Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #44 on: 06/06/11, 02:21 PM »

"Snowmobiling is a travesty on Mt. Baker"... Well I will remember that next time I am called to Mt. Baker to rescue a skier or hiker. I respect all users and have not had the same respect given back to me. It is always nice to have ski poles and other things thrown at you as you ride up the trail at Baker. I recently finished my undergrad degree at EWU as a Recreation Management student. While in the program I met many skiers, climbers, and hikers that had the same views as many of you. We all worked together to educate ourselves about each other. So i ask why are you all so judgmental of anyone about snowmobilers? 

A couple years ago I went on a body recovery of a hiker on Mt. Baker, he was smashed by a rock. When our groups of snowmobilers arrived to recover the body from the scene we were met with friendly faces glad to see someone had come to help. The hikers left the scene and those of us snowmobilers stayed. I personally spent 2 straight days on the mountain working to remove rocks that covered the body of the hiker. After 2 days we got him free and gave closure to his friends and family. For 2 days that group of SNOWMOBILERS worked to get that man out spending our own money and using personally equipment to retrieve his body. We really aren’t as bad of people as you make us out to be. Why don’t we deserve the same right to recreation as you all enjoy?

I agree with you 100% education is the best way, but we all need to educate ourselves. This is not a one-way street; we are not the only ones who need education you all do to. Learn to respect other users and work with them because a large majority of us will come to your rescue when you need us. Just as my peers taught me about skiing, climbing and hiking I explained to them how to interact with snowmobilers.

Also, snowmobilers have small areas we have to share with all user groups. Non-Motorized users have whole mountains and areas to themselves. If you hate us so much go somewhere else so our awful sport doesn't bother you.

Scotsman you are someone I would like to connect with and work together to bring both sides together. We all in someway will count on the other side to help us someday. Even after having things thrown at me for being on the trail at the same time as a group of hikers, I have and still will come to the rescue of any hiker, climber, or skier on the mountain.

I'm sure that all means nothing to those of you who hate all motorized users, but at least I attempted to reach out to you. I would be willing to work with anyone to better our relationships so we can all enjoy our sports.
Logged
Scotsman
Member
Offline

Posts: 3388


Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #45 on: 06/06/11, 04:43 PM »


I think you are dead on in that statement and I've brought it up before on this website and had the idea poo-pooed.
I do see it partially as a culture clash.

American society may not have have a class system based upon your station at birth like the British but Americans do have a class system based upon culture whether or not they like to admit it or not. Let's be frank.

The vast majority of BC skiers in the PNW are liberal leaning urbanites( NTTAWWT) who consider the mountains and especially the alpine regions as spirituous places and are usually proponents of non-motorized mountain travel ( against  snowmobiles, dirt bikes etc) Many consider recreational snowmobiling " blue collar" and" redneck".

Many BC skiers( not all..... generalizing) will defend their positions by saying they have nothing against snowmobiles and would even use one  for valley approaches  or see no problem as long as they are confined to logging roads and never used in the alpine. To these people snowmobiles are OK as long as they are confined to use as a utility transportation vehicle. Snowmobiling for pleasure and for recreational use as opposed to utilitarian use, is still considered beyond the pale. For these people, the alpine areas are cathedrals of peace and quiet and should all be wilderness. The John Muir ethos.
Hence the video of somebody snowmobiling up a colouir in the alpine is just sacrilege.

I don't share that view and believe that if your are going to exclude snowmobiles by wilderness designation in huge areas of the sate then you should at least to be fair, allow some access to good alpine terrain and a high mountain ascent like Baker. The mountains are for everybody not just the non-motorized and they have no inherent spirituality other than that afforded to them by humans who feel that way.

There is a basic issue of fairness here. Wilderness designation excludes snowmobilers but skiers can use the areas designated as legal for snowmobilers even if they don't like the exhaust and noise..... they still can. You can't expect to negotiate with another user group and reach a compromise unless you have some respect for their right to exist and their right to enjoy some of the same experiences you value so highly.

214 skiers in a line on Saturday, skinning up to the plywood shacks containing barrels of excrement at Camp Muir after driving their Subarus to Paradise. Groups of 30 aspiring mountaineers on the Kautz approach as photographed elsewhere on this website .
We all want to enjoy the mountains. The 214 skinners on Sat and the 30 aspiring mountaineers ............. AND the snowmobilers.


« Last Edit: 06/06/11, 07:20 PM by Scotsman » Logged

Chief Etiquette Officer of TAY and TAY's #1 Poster
Poet Laureate of TAY.
Chairman and Founder of FOTAY( Friends of TAY)
Moderator of the moderators.
"Most Brilliant Move" of the 11/12 ski season
" Knows what he is talking about"
Expert Typist.
Crystal Whore
" Scotsman may be correct"....Mikerolfs
Lowell_Skoog
Member
Offline

Posts: 2025


WWW
Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #46 on: 06/06/11, 05:13 PM »

I'm sure that all means nothing to those of you who hate all motorized users, but at least I attempted to reach out to you. I would be willing to work with anyone to better our relationships so we can all enjoy our sports.

I've never disparaged snowmobilers as people.  My comments have focused on snowmobiling (the activity) at this location, not on the people who participate in it.

The part of 1200cc's post pertaining to rescue was engaging but irrelevant.  Snowmobilers are to be commended for coming to the aid of skiers and hikers.  And skiers and hikers are to be commended for coming to the aid of snowmobilers.  (Read Paul Russell's post in this thread.)

But this has nothing to do with whether Mt Baker should be open to recreational snowmobiling.  Helicopters are used for rescue all the time. Does that mean we should open Mt Baker to heli-skiing?  Accidents happen frequently on the Muir Snowfield on Mt Rainier. Does that mean we should open the Muir Snowfield to recreational machines?  If we really want to support rescues, shouldn't we just build roads everywhere?  Rescue is a red herring. 
« Last Edit: 06/06/11, 07:36 PM by Lowell_Skoog » Logged
ashcan
5Member
Offline

Posts: 46


Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #47 on: 06/06/11, 09:13 PM »

I think that some folks in the snomo community and Scotsman are missing the point. We (the liberal leaning urbanites) are not anti-snowmobile, we're pro-wilderness. Only 2.7% of the contiguous U.S. has been designated as wilderness. That leaves quite a bit a space for people to pursue motorized recreational activities and not very much space for the growing number of people who want to get a break from the "developed" world.

I would argue that wilderness is not an elitist aesthetic but a unique and basic American value. The mountains are for everybody, just not everybody and their machines.

I also want to note that when I was involved with the Alpine Safety Awareness Program, we were one of the first organizations to reach out and train the snomo community about avalanche safety. So I feel it inaccurate to portray this as some kind of culture war. For me, it's simply a wilderness issue.


Logged
Scotsman
Member
Offline

Posts: 3388


Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #48 on: 06/06/11, 10:45 PM »

 I have no problem with the concept of wilderness and that snowmobilles aren't allowed in wilderness although I do think boundary lines should take the terrain into account.

But you want more wilderness and existing legal snowmobile areas changed to wilderness.
You want buffer zones between wilderness and existing legal snowmobile areas thereby restricting them further.
You want snowmobiling banned in the alpine on Baker, St Helens and Mt Adams because it's a travesty.
You want snowmobilers to stay on logging roads and not allowed into the alpine.
You want snowmobilers restricted to  the same area as summer motorized accessible areas.
You want currently legal areas near major population areas changed in designation so ski tourers can get untracked pow.

Yea suuurrrre, its not a cultural issue.....!!!!! It's about the culture of non-motorized recreation versus motorized and the fact that many BC tourers want it all and aren't willing to share any part of the alpine or summits or bowls and look down their noses at recreational snowmobilers and characterize them as beer swilling, litter dropping, uncouth polluters.

You basically want a form of cultural apartheid based upon the means by which access is gained ...the use of human power versus mechanical. You want the "homelands "of the snowmobiler to be restricted to smaller and smaller areas while saving the aesthetic and spectacular terrain  and high peaks for the sole use of yourselves and your aesthetic.

There is still a lot of areas in WA where you can escape and be completely free of snowmobile influence, it isn't hard ....trust me.
There are also areas where compromise is necessary based upon the growing use by both parties.
How can you expect to reach a compromise with snowmobilers in these areas when you can't even cede them the right to some good alpine terrain with spectacular scenery and even a high summit or two.




« Last Edit: 06/06/11, 11:30 PM by Scotsman » Logged

Chief Etiquette Officer of TAY and TAY's #1 Poster
Poet Laureate of TAY.
Chairman and Founder of FOTAY( Friends of TAY)
Moderator of the moderators.
"Most Brilliant Move" of the 11/12 ski season
" Knows what he is talking about"
Expert Typist.
Crystal Whore
" Scotsman may be correct"....Mikerolfs
1200cc
1Member
Offline

Posts: 2


Re: May 29, 2011, Mt Baker, Easton Above the Clouds
« Reply #49 on: 06/07/11, 07:56 AM »

Only 2.7% of the contiguous U.S. has been designated as wilderness.
 

Just so your aware snowmobiles are not allowed in all NON Wilderness areas. You stated this to sound like there is only 2.7% of land that we can not use? Your groups have a much larger percent of open area to use than snowmobilers.

My point with the rescue story is hiker will throw things at you and try to get you banned from areas but as soon as they need you they except you! I have never seen a hiker show up to help a snowmobiler,  but we always goto the rescue of hikers, and skiers.

Wilderness is a good thing in moderation, some areas that are given wilderness distinction should not be wilderness. We do need to preserve our wild lands,  but more than just motorized users are stopped from using wilderness areas. Many non motorized user such as bikers, and handicapped population that use special equipment to access the backcountry cannot legally access wilderness area because there equipment is to mechanized.

This debate will go on and most bad apples in both users groups will clash, but we can all work together to try to educate our friends and fellow users who don't understand.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4  All | Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



Login with username, password and session length

Thank you to our sponsors!
click to visit our sponsor: Feathered Friends
Feathered Friends
click to visit our sponsor: Marmot Mountain Works
Marmot Mountain Works
click to visit our sponsor: Second Ascent
Second Ascent
click to visit our sponsor: American Alpine Institute
American Alpine Institute
click to visit our sponsor: Pro Guiding Service
Pro Guiding Service
Contact turns-all-year.com

Turns All Year Trip Reports ©2001-2010 Turns All Year LLC. All Rights Reserved

The opinions expressed in posts are those of the poster and do not necessarily
reflect the opinions of Trip Reports administrators or Turns All Year LLC


Turns All Year Trip Reports | Powered by SMF 1.0.6.
© 2001-2005, Lewis Media. All Rights Reserved.