Home > Trip Reports > March 6, 2011, Paradise -- THANKS SNOWSHOERS!!

March 6, 2011, Paradise -- THANKS SNOWSHOERS!!

3/6/11
WA Cascades West Slopes South (Mt Rainier)
12966
28
Posted by ron j on 3/7/11 2:58am
First I must say, my hat's off to some of yesterday's Paradise snowshoers, whoever they are.

We put in a LONG ever-so-gradual climbing skintrack carefully crafted to get us back to our car on our day's end deproach without donning skins. When exiting  we noticed a climbing showshoe track alongside our climbing skintrack with not even so much as a snowshoer's pole plant in the skin track. Since the snowshoers had the insight and courtesy to leave the skintrack untouched our exit to the car was smooth, fast and sweet. Had they used the skintrach to lessen their climbing efforts their shoe penetration would have basically destroyed the ski track, thus making the exit a major challenge.
I don't know if those snowshoers are also skiers, or if they just had the good sense and consideration to stay off the skin track just in case another skier might want to use it again.
But whatever the reason, THANK YOU!!

Had you been around when we got to the car it would have gotten you a free beer :)

Oh yeah, skiing on north facing protected aspects around Paradise was stellar, just about as good as it gets around Paradise, and exactly as forecast by NWAC ;)
Snow stability good.
author=ron j link=topic=20035.msg84933#msg84933 date=1299524285]

Had you been around when we got to the car it would have gotten you a free beer :)



Oh, uh...that, uh, was me, Yeah that's it, I'll collect that free beer.

author=Rusty Knees link=topic=20035.msg84935#msg84935 date=1299524700]
Oh, uh...that, uh, was me, Yeah that's it, I'll collect that free beer.

I'll always have an extra brew for you, Don :)

Awesome!

I've been tempted to create a big sign that I can plant at the beginning of a skin track asking booters, etc to stay off the skintrack. Maybe something that says "Free beer for booters and snowshoers that stay off the skintrack."

author=lrudholm link=topic=20035.msg84938#msg84938 date=1299526021]
Awesome!
I've been tempted to create a big sign that I can plant at the beginning of a skin track asking booters, etc to stay off the skintrack. Maybe something that says "Free beer for booters and snowshoers that stay off the skintrack."

:) Better bring a few cases. :)
We met scores of snowshoers during the day.
But interestingly enough, not even one other skier except for while in the parking lot.

Skinning up the Westside Road today in a track we've put in for the last week, I came across Bronka Sundstrom and friend on skis with a friend on snowshoes.  We stopped to talk.  The snowshoer (a woman in her late 60s) complained that snowshoeing in the skin track was difficult (given the crusty snow on the edges).  I said, "you know you shouldn't be snowshoeing in the skin track anyway, it's not good manners, try making your own trail".  She said defiantly "did you put in this track?"  My wife and I responded in unison "Yes, we did!" and I added, multiple times over that past week.  She said "Well make it wider next time!"  I said "[expletive deleted"].  She said "I don't take that from anyone"  I said "You take all you can get, without paying for it [expletive deleted, expletive deleted]"  She said "I have worked enough in my life, I put in my time" I said "Where, at the bank?"  Anyhow, another nice exchange between senior citizens and one example of one kind of snowshoer who feels entitled.  On the way out, we skied by a nice young couple who had snowshoed up carefully avoiding the ski tracks. :-)  Nice people, we smiled, said hello, and wished them a good day.

want your own private skintrack????    better move to the yukon dude....

hee, hee.  i reckon i see something a bit under 50/50, snowshoe tracks outside the skin track.  Therefore, that alone, leaves me smiling nearly half the time..    ;D

AC, you one badass dude. dishin it out where it belongs, for sure, but I just can't burn seniors, even when they have it coming  - what's your secret, man..

[edited to add]    ps.  i purchased rights to use 'dude' for first half of 2011.  sub-assignments negotiable - please inquire

author=bellingham allen link=topic=20035.msg84988#msg84988 date=1299548950]
want your own private skintrack???? better move to the yukon dude....


Hummm... good to know. Never been to the Yukon and had no idea that the snowshoers up there were so much more considerate about skin tracks than here. For sure then I'd certainly give a beer to a Yukon snowshoer ;)


author=bellingham allen link=topic=20035.msg84988#msg84988 date=1299548950]
want your own private skintrack????    better move to the yukon dude....


I gave up on intact skin tracks a good 4-5 years ago; I rarely even comment about them to people.  But I did make a skin track on private, posted land that I thought might have some small chance of surviving 24 hrs LOL; the Park sent snowshoers there because they didn't have chain to got up to Paradise LOL

In this case, I wouldn't have bothered at all to comment to the old bag if she hadn't complained about the skin track to me then, after my temperate comment started to rag on me!  I don't take that crap from anyone and I'm not reluctant to shovel it back.  Not that I expect it to change the behavior of that person.

author=davidG link=topic=20035.msg84992#msg84992 date=1299549506]
... but I just can't burn seniors, even when they have it coming  - what's your secret, man..


My secret?  I am a senior, and I'm grumpy becuz I have osteoarthrities, and my spouse (who was with me) is even older than me, and maybe older than the old bag I cussed out ... of course, I wouldn't dare swear at my senior-citizen wife!

author=lrudholm link=topic=20035.msg84938#msg84938 date=1299526021]
Awesome!

I've been tempted to create a big sign that I can plant at the beginning of a skin track asking booters, etc to stay off the skintrack. Maybe something that says "Free beer for booters and snowshoers that stay off the skintrack."


I talked to an LEO/Ranger about programs for snowshoer/bc skier saftey and he did mention the NPS is planning to put up a sign asking snowshoers not to step in ski tracks (and maybe other items of bc etiquette as well).

The Mount Tahoma Trails Association now has some nice signs asking snowshoers and hikers to "share the trail" by staying to the edges, leaving the center of the groomed trail for skiers.

And it is my understanding the at least a couple of snowshoe manufacturers have included in their instructions on how to use snowshoes to share the snow by not steeping in ski tracks.

I believe most, but certainly not all, snowshoers and hikers will indeed avoid the skin tracks if they realize the consequences and accept the concept of share the trail.

Acarey, I think if I ran across a senior lady with that much spunk, I'd be obligated to say, "yes ma'am, how wide would you like that skin track?"

author=jwplotz link=topic=20035.msg85020#msg85020 date=1299558103]
Acarey, I think if I ran across a senior lady with that much spunk, I'd be obligated to say, "yes ma'am, how wide would you like that skin track?"


I'm sure her "spunk" has helped her get her way for decades, much more than an old person who is polite, considerate, and helpful. :)

We put in skin tracks to make cross-country ski tracks for ourselves and other seniors (and any other skiers) in our neighborhood; that day we were on metal-edged waxless XC skis after I and my wife had groomed (compressed and smoothed) the snow the day before with heavy AT and telemark gear (and had broken trail over the last 10 days after each heavy snowfall).  The two other woman we talked (one was 85 years old and the other was probably 65 years old) were on skinny XC skis without metal edges.  Both were friendly, happy, and jocular during our discussions.  I admire them for their athleticism and attitude.

I have been up at Paradise, under various snow conditions, and have seen people struggling on snowshoes and I actually told them to use the skin track I had put in (as snow conditions were such that the track would have been firmed up, not destroyed)--and the track was one that would be used by skiers on wide skis with skins.  But I don't suggest snowshoers use what is obviously a maintained XC track (narrow skis, well compressed snow, with multiple pole plant marks along the sides), when there is plenty of room (30+ feet) for another, snowshoe, track and snow conditions are such that it would just as easy to make their own track.  It is just common sense and common courtesy.

author=acarey link=topic=20035.msg84985#msg84985 date=1299547689]
Skinning up the Westside Road today in a track we've put in for the last week, I came across Bronka Sundstrom and friend on skis with a friend on snowshoes.  We stopped to talk.  The snowshoer (a woman in her late 60s) complained that snowshoeing in the skin track was difficult (given the crusty snow on the edges).   I said, "you know you shouldn't be snowshoeing in the skin track anyway, it's not good manners, try making your own trail".  She said defiantly "did you put in this track?"  My wife and I responded in unison "Yes, we did!" and I added, multiple times over that past week.  She said "Well make it wider next time!"  I said "[expletive deleted"].  She said "I don't take that from anyone"  I said "You take all you can get, without paying for it [expletive deleted, expletive deleted]"  She said "I have worked enough in my life, I put in my time" I said "Where, at the bank?"  Anyhow, another nice exchange between senior citizens and one example of one kind of snowshoer who feels entitled.  On the way out, we skied by a nice young couple who had snowshoed up carefully avoiding the ski tracks. :-)  Nice people, we smiled, said hello, and wished them a good day.


I like it

We all hate snowshoes in the skin track, but whats even worse is booting skiers and boarders in the skin track. Youd think they would know better....I frequently put in skin tracks in the slackcountry because as we all know its easier than wallowing in the snow. Unless Im the first one out there I always put it close to the bootpack origin. Sometimes as Im putting it in I see people busting up it instead of staying in the already established bootpack. Not only are these people ruining my next skin up, but they are also making it harder on themselves. To me thats wosre than snowshoers and way more annoying.

A hearty 10 mile approach usually takes care of the skin track booters ; )

Ooops, forgive my not-deep-enough-in-the-BC mistake. My bad, you are better than me and I now bow down to your superiorness..

author=alpymarr link=topic=20035.msg85097#msg85097 date=1299611860]
Ooops, forgive my not-deep-enough-in-the-BC mistake. My bad, you are better than me and I now bow down to your superiorness..


I like it.

author=alpymarr link=topic=20035.msg85097#msg85097 date=1299611860]
Ooops, forgive my not-deep-enough-in-the-BC mistake. My bad, you are better than me and I now bow down to your superiorness..


Tongue in cheek, Alpymarr. simmer down....

we were up on mazama and skyline in snowshoes .. and while the only track up to mazama was mutually shared with no complaints .. when we proceeded to the skyline .. yeah we broke our own trail beside the fresh skin tracks .. but on the descent i thought skiers wouldn't even be using the tracks anyhow?? .. no matter .. just saying

author=acarey link=topic=20035.msg84985#msg84985 date=1299547689">
Skinning up the Westside Road today in a track we've put in for the last week, I came across Bronka Sundstrom and friend on skis with a friend on snowshoes.  We stopped to talk.  The snowshoer (a woman in her late 60s) complained that snowshoeing in the skin track was difficult (given the crusty snow on the edges).   I said, "you know you shouldn't be snowshoeing in the skin track anyway, it's not good manners, try making your own trail".  She said defiantly "did you put in this track?"  My wife and I responded in unison "Yes, we did!" and I added, multiple times over that past week.  She said "Well make it wider next time!"  I said "[expletive deleted"">.  She said "I don't take that from anyone"  I said "You take all you can get, without paying for it [expletive deleted, expletive deleted">"  She said "I have worked enough in my life, I put in my time" I said "Where, at the bank?"  Anyhow, another nice exchange between senior citizens and one example of one kind of snowshoer who feels entitled.  On the way out, we skied by a nice young couple who had snowshoed up carefully avoiding the ski tracks. :-)  Nice people, we smiled, said hello, and wished them a good day.


I missed a good one here!

acarey, sounds like maybe you learned a thing or two from Jerry Seinfeld

let's i'm trailing a buddy with snoeshows on, as do i.  I step between his step and look back at the skin, seeing it is flat , level, and not as icy as i found it.  what do you say there?  not trying to be a smart ass or piss anyone off but sometimes it's too steep and deep to keep footing.

author=JibberD link=topic=20035.msg85166#msg85166 date=1299648175">
I missed a good one here!

acarey, sounds like maybe you learned a thing or two from Jerry Seinfeld


Never watched him (til this link); sound like you have N & S reversed on your moral compass ::)--in my case, who was doing the taking, son?

author=kath link=topic=20035.msg85147#msg85147 date=1299639734]
we were up on mazama and skyline in snowshoes .. and while the only track up to mazama was mutually shared with no complaints .. when we proceeded to the skyline .. yeah we broke our own trail beside the fresh skin tracks .. but on the descent i thought skiers wouldn't even be using the tracks anyhow?? .. no matter .. just saying


Kath, it is great your made your own trail.  But, since you asked, here are some answers.  There are snow conditions in which no harm is done and mutual benefit is achieved with both snowshoers and skiers using the same track.  There are snow conditions in which snowshoers will collapse the outside edge of the skin track, dig deep divots, or leave snowshoe prints into the skin track such that the next skier up (and that might very well be the skier who put the track in originally) will find the the climb more arduous than a clean skin track or even have to break trail again.  By examining the degree of imprint the snowshoe makes, one can relatively determine if one is being helpful or harmful.  Contributing to a firm, smooth, level track--helpful (but not necessarily so at all for cross-country skiers that need a very firm, smooth track--a special case).  Churning up the track is not.

Many skiers yo-yo (climb up, ski down, and climb up again, as many as 5-10 times); if a skier or a ski party breaks trail to put in a up track they might well want to use it again.  I, personally, rarely yo-yo, but many do.  Newly arriving skiers usually will use the existing skin track (if it was put in with good consideration given to route).  Using a well maintained track not only is easier, but reduces the overall impact of tracks on the scenery.  Look at the area just above Paradise--at the end of any weekend day it looks like a cattle feed lot, then envision a clear skin track, a clean snowshoe track, or a clean pair of tracks, one snowshoe, one skin track.  Many people find the more pristine the environment appears, the more aesthetic it is.  Likwise for down tracks, IMHO.  One nice ski descent can add to the aesthetics of the scene; 15 do the opposite.  But, of course, skiable slopes are somewhat limited in availability, so they get trashed.

As far as the end of the day goes, some regular visitors to an area often break trail every day to maintain a skin track because letting it go too long makes for extremely arduous trail breaking.   And after a day of hard trail breaking, the skier might return the next day with high hopes of an easy skin up.  Less frequent visitors benefit greatly from these trail breakers (of whom, I am one; I expect I have broken new trail about 40 days in the Paradise environs this year).

I snowshoe too.  But not nearly as frequently as I ski.  One thing I don't understand is why snowshoers don't collaborate as well as skiers in making a reasonable uptrack, well packed, and following safe routes up.  At least in skiing, such collaboration really pays off, especially for regular skiers; everyone can go further, faster, with less effort to enjoy the scenery and the winter environment.

Jus' sayin'

author=acarey link=topic=20035.msg85193#msg85193 date=1299679551]
...sound like you have N & S reversed on your moral compass ::)--in my case, who was doing the taking, son?


Understood acarey. My apologies for implying you were doing the taking, not my intention.

Your conversation just reminded me of the Seinfeld scene in that it obliterates what I feel are American social norms, especially for the PNW backcountry. "Not that there's anything wrong with that." - to quote another famous Seinfeld phrase. It all strikes me as a fresh breeze of honesty in our generally passive aggressive PNW. -Not the stealing of bread from the elderly, of course, that's for the folks at Enron, Wall Street, out of state aluminum siding salespeople, etc. and not humorous or refreshing at all.

Looking forward to meeting you some day sir.

thx .. when we got to the ridge and saw this beautiful track i said to the skiers that i didn't even want to head out in snowshoes as our tracks beside them would destroy the scene ..




here as we started up the skyline ridge we traversed well around to the left (instead of the shorter straight up) just so we wouldn't destroy the slope for skiers .. had it been more than just a leisurely snowshoe we prob wouldn't have been so sensitive




here's a few more pix fm the day: http://www.flickr.com/photos/33792231@N00/with/5509909841/

Kath: Outstanding!  The sentiments, the pictures, the aesthetics!  (I looked at all the snow pics on your website).  I wold hope snowshoers such as yourself would post trip reports here given the quality of your pictures and your sense of aesthetics.  After all, snowshoers make turns too ...

thx .. i'm actually really looking forward to strapping on the boards this spring and heading back up there for some sweet corn .. we are new at bc skiing and thought we would have a tough time skiing in those conditions .. i hear ya zap (our bc teacher up at snoqualmie pass who warned us) .. btw zap i went to ski in utah last month .. at alta and snow basin for some practice and it was so icy i couldn't do any turns .. my bro is a double black resort skier and he was able to find some pow high and in the trees and shade .. he's back in california now and skiing squaw and kirkwood .. and says conditions haven't been much different there

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