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Nov. 16, 2004 - Mt Adams Safe for Now
- snoslut
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<br><br>Edit:<br>The initial discussion of a Mt. Adams ski resort is here:<br> www.turns-all-year.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB...splay;num=1095144926 <br>Charles
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- powscraper
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- skip
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<br><br>I'd like to solve the puzzle, Pat...<br><br>In a related vein, does anyone know of an online source of the letters to the editor they cited? Not a reader of the PI, nor of the Yakima Herald Republic for that matter, I have not seen any but am interested. A cursory search didn't reveal much.<br>-s<br>f*****g c********r.
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- Skier66
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- Paul Belitz
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- PDXSkier
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- snoslut
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<br><br>Pretty much all the resorts here have reached critical mass. Some of the exceptions are White Pass, Hurricane Ridge, Bluewood, and a couple of others that are tucked far away. My point PDXskier is that we (I) do understand and that's why at this point in time I think a resort on Adams doesn't sound like a good idea. I travel to places like Adams to get away from the hords. After riding the resorts at Hood and Bachelor I come to the same conclusion as the situation in Washington. You better bring your sword and shield and a little Kung-Fu wouldn't hurt either. Anyways let's leave this "pristine wilderness" to the people who want to hike/skin to earn their turns for now. We all are aware that MHM will continue to push the resort idea and at some point in the future it will be built but not this year and hopefully not in the ones to follow.<br><br>Let's change gears here. Does anyone have any beta on why MHM doesn't try to develop Mt Jefferson? Better yet...how about a mega resort between Bachelor, Broken Top, and the Sisters. They could be connected by ganjalas... I mean gondolas. ;DAll the posters here seem to be Seattle skiers who have no understanding of the crowding and limited terrain issues that face Portland skiers.
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- powscraper
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<br><br><br>I don't believe you. I think you work for THE MAN. Or at least, I hope you are getting something for turning to the dark side.I'm disappointed. I thought a tactfully placed resort on Adams was a good idea. It would offer Portland area skiers more terrain, less crowds, better backcountry access to currently unused areas of Adams and would alleviate pressure for further development on Mt Hood. <br><br>All the posters here seem to be Seattle skiers who have no understanding of the crowding and limited terrain issues that face Portland skiers. I hope you all have fun skiing Crystal, Stevens, Snoqualmie, Baker this year--oh and making your once-a-year trip to enjoy the "pristine wilderness" on the south rib of Adams.<br><br>And sorry Lowell, I don't have a vested interest in the resort. How can you criticize anyone for posting anonymous given the confrontational and contemptuous attitude of the above posters?<br>
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- Joedabaker
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<br><br>Think carefully what you mean by this quote Snoslut.<br>Pristine Wilderness is the newly designated name for MRNP border around Crystal Mountain.<br><br>Assuming that you think that "Pristine Wilderness" should be left to people who want to hike/skin may bust a hole in that Crystal season pass that you swing around on your neck. <br><br>Some days I like to ride the lift ski from the area and drop in MRNP and ski all day then skin out is that not earning my turns?<br><br>Access to the South Back is made in part of the Pristine Wilderness zone. If MRNP wants they could pull the plug on safe Southback access from Crystal. There by reducing Crystal's ski area by 1/3! <br><br>Furthermore the Pristine Wilderness designation only allows 108 skier/boarders a day and no group more than 12 at a time to travel in Pristine Wilderness area. <br><br>I am not informed enough about the affairs of MT Adams to make a comment either way and I do not want to turn the thread into the Crystal issue.<br><br>It seems if Adams has this designation then only 108 people would be allowed to access the designated zone a day. Then the hordes of spring skiers would have to work hard to get permits based on the Pristine Zone designation. <br>If the Park and FS want they can implement procedures to adhere to the rule. Some folks who travel long distances to ski Adams will be left out in the cold!<br><br>Is it better to know Park Designations and how they effect you before you throw around ideas about areas unknown?<br><br>See you soon-<br>JBD<br><br><br> Anyways let's leave this "pristine wilderness" to the people who want to hike/skin to earn their turns for now.
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- snoslut
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<br><br>Hey Joe what's the haps? I'm aware of the issues looming around Crystal but the topic here is Adams. Please don't take it out of context. I was referring to PDXskier's comment in his reply to my post (quoted above). I meant pristine wilderness as in pristine-pure and uncorrupted wilderness. Nothing more. I'm sure PDXskier did too.<br><br>No hard feelings.I hope you all have fun skiing Crystal, Stevens, Snoqualmie, Baker this year--oh and making your once-a-year trip to enjoy the "pristine wilderness" on the south rib of Adams.
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- philfort
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<br><br><br>You'd be more credible if there was a real person behind your screen name.And sorry Lowell, I don't have a vested interest in the resort. How can you criticize anyone for posting anonymous given the confrontational and contemptuous attitude of the above posters?<br>
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- Lowell_Skoog
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<br><br>If you spend much time on this bulletin board, you'll find that the confrontational and contemptuous attitude displayed above is very rare. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen it quite that bad before. In my experience, putting faith in people's character and engaging them respectfully and openly on the Net nearly always yields worthwhile results. I stand by my comments in the earlier thread. The posters that I referred to seemed very fishy to me. If they presented their views openly and constructively I, and I think most people on this board, would be happy to consider them on their merits.And sorry Lowell, I don't have a vested interest in the resort. How can you criticize anyone for posting anonymous given the confrontational and contemptuous attitude of the above posters?<br>
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- Charles
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- PDXSkier
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- Amar Andalkar
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- powscraper
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<br><br>Who defines "target user?" The term assumes that the target user for Mt. Adams is a ski resort lift skier. Nothing could be further from the truth. As far as I'm concerned, Mt. Adams is the #1 spring/summer summit for Washingtonian (and many Oregonian) backcountry skiers. They don't seem to have a problem getting to the summit and accessing its many skiing opportunities. <br><br>Riley/MHM's "target user" on the other hand is a pleasure skier with deep pockets. A ski lift is a machine for making money. It's along the same lines as damming rivers, cutting down forests, and drilling for oil. White oil, that is!<br><br>The point is that the vast majority of Washingtonians are perfectly happy with keeping Adams unskewered--and since when do Oregonians, who already have multiple perfectly exploited summits, have any business telling us how to manage our mountains?<br><br>ps. if you are indeed are just an honest, unincorporated PDX skier, please don't take any personal offense, I don't know who you are, I am just doing battle with your ideas. Something I might add is very easy to do on a backcountry skiing web forum!I appreciate the levelheaded responses and I will play politely as long as others do too. I wish to make two points:<br><br>1) It is not fair to Portlanders for Seattle skiers to oppose the development of a resort which they are not the target users of...<br>
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- Jim Oker
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- PDXSkier
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<br>Where Crystal, Baker and Whistler not special places before they were developed? To me, and to the thousands that would not have visited these areas without the existance of a resort, these areas are still special.<br> <br><br>I wish to respond further to your post but I lack the time to do so now. I will try to respond later this evening.<br>The main point is really that the SE and east sides of Mount Adams are a very special place
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- powscraper
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<br><br>Haha. None of those are on a volcano. lol<br>Where Crystal, Baker and Whistler not special places before they were developed? To me, and to the thousands that would not have visited these areas without the existance of a resort, these areas are still special.<br><br>
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- andyski
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- PDXSkier
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<br>Why do you find this amusing? I listed these resorts because they have interesting terrain, are scenic and are in highly sensitive environmentally areas. If these areas were undeveloped I feel they would be of equal conservation value as the east side of Mt Adams. I'm sure others will disagree, and coincidentally, some that disagree will be frequent patrons of these resorts or the access they provide.Haha. None of those are on a volcano. lol
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- powscraper
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- Amar Andalkar
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<br><br>No, no, no. You really don't have any idea what you're talking about. You just can't compare the SE side of Adams to Crystal, Whistler, and Baker ski areas. It's not merely that Adams is a volcano that makes it special, it's the magic and wonder of the SE and E side. For comparison, the south rib of Adams largely lacks those extra-special qualities, which may be coloring your judgment if that's the only part of Adams you've experienced. The south and west sides of Adams are fairly typical of high Cascade volcano scenery, but they are not amazing and special like the NW, N, NE, E, and SE sides.<br><br>I may anger some by saying this, but there is really nothing particularly special about the Crystal or Whistler areas. Both are fairly typical of the scenery and terrain found in their respective regions (non-volcanic central Cascades and southern Coast Mountains). Their locations were chosen for ski areas due to ease of access, Crystal because it sits in a high valley beside the pre-existing road to Rainier and Whistler because it occupies the high point of the southernmost pass through the Coast Mtns, linking Howe Sound to the Lillooet River valley. Ironically, both locations ended up being in rain shadows, with snowfalls of about 50% greater found just a few miles to the south in each case. <br><br>I'm glad PDXSkier thinks Crystal and Whistler are special, but each is flanked by far more spectacular and special areas which luckily do not have ski lifts strung across them. Crystal has Chinook Pass and all of Mt Rainier National Park beside it. Whistler in particular is surrounded on all sides by other mountains which are more scenic, more glaciated, more special, with Garibaldi Provincial Park encompassing the S, E, and N sides behind it, and the Tantalus Range, Mt Cayley massif, and Pemberton Icefield on the opposite side of the valley. You just need to explore a bit to find these truly special areas, some of them are only a short hike or ski in from Hwy 99 (or you could hire one of the over-abundant helicopters if you're lazy). <br><br>As for Baker ski area, I agree that location is fairly special, Heather Meadows and Artist Point are magical places in both winter and summer. But Baker ski area is quite small and compact, the ski area development stopped short of ruining the best which that area has to offer. If lifts had run over to Table Mountain, Bagley Lakes, Chain Lakes, or up the flank of Mt Shuksan to White Salmon Glacier, then some unique and special places would have been severely altered or destroyed.<br><br>In the conservation vs. development debate, I think people need to appreciate the difference between typical areas and special areas in the mountains. I'm not saying that typical areas should not be protected, they certainly are fragile and easily damaged like all alpine environments. Such areas should be developed with care if developed at all, but those areas which truly are unique and special need to be protected entirely from development. Here are some familiar examples from WA and OR to clarify the issue: Stevens, Snoqualmie, White Pass, Government Camp, Santiam Pass, and Willamette Pass are all fairly typical mountain passes for their regions, not very special, and they are very appropriate locations for ski area development, while putting a ski area in Washington Pass or Cascade Pass or McKenzie Pass would destroy something unique and special in each case.<br><br>I apologize to anyone whom I offended by calling their favorite mountain playgrounds "typical" and "not special". But you really need to step back, have some perspective, and see the big picture.<br><br>Amar Andalkar<br> www.skimountaineer.com <br>I listed these resorts [Crystal, Whistler, Baker] because they have interesting terrain, are scenic and are in highly sensitive environmentally areas. If these areas were undeveloped I feel they would be of equal conservation value as the east side of Mt Adams.
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- Jim Oker
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- Lowell_Skoog
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Were Crystal, Baker and Whistler not special places before they were developed? To me, and to the thousands that would not have visited these areas without the existance of a resort, these areas are still special.
I haven't commented much about the proposed Mt Adams resort because it seemed like a far-fetched idea and I thought it unlikely to go forward. I'm not personally familiar with the east side of Mt Adams but from what I've seen in pictures I think wilderness is the "highest and best use" of the area. I also suspect that skiing conditions high on the mountain would often be poor in winter.
Since PDXSkier mentioned Crystal Mountain, I'd like to offer a little history. In 1953-54, Washington's Governor Arthur Langlie campaigned to construct a tramway from Paradise to Camp Muir on Mt Rainier. He also proposed building a deluxe lodge, swimming pool, and golf course at Paradise. The idea was to promote Paradise as a year-round resort, as it had been before World War II. The campaign was instigated by local merchants to increase winter business and it eventually enlisted ski promoters.
In December 1953, Langlie invited representatives of chambers of commerce, ski organizations, railroads and airlines to a meeting to discuss the proposal. The lone dissenting voice was from Leo Gallagher, a member of the Mountaineers who attended the meeting as an individual. The Tacoma News Tribune (12/16/53) reported: "Gallagher cautioned that if the park service should give an inch by permitting an aerial tram in Mt Rainier National Park, the money grabbers and commercial interests could open the aperture up a mile wide by coming in with other commercial features."
Park Service Director Conrad Wirth resisted the idea of a permanent tram. For years, Park Service policy had been to allow only temporary lifts, like T-bars, that could be erected in winter and removed in summer. Wirth's boss, Interior Secretary Douglas McKay, wavered on the issue, and Wirth argued that the very idea of the national parks was at stake. The Automobile Club of Washington launched a campaign to take Mt Rainier away from the "sole use of bird watchers and mountain climbers" and return it to "the people." In January 1954, the Mountaineers board of trustees passed a resolution to seek a suitable area for ski development outside Rainier National Park. That summer, hearings in Seattle generated strong opposition to the tramway and it was eventually rejected by the Interior Department.
Seattle and Tacoma skiers and businessmen continued to pursue the idea of a ski resort near, but outside, Mt Rainier National Park. As early as 1953, a party including Everett and Mary Griggs, Duke and Marillyn Watson, and ski champions Don and Gretchen Fraser made a reconnaissance ski trip to survey Corral Pass for potential development. After three years of study, skiers shifted their attention to upper Silver Creek, a few miles to the south. After several more years of surveys, attracting investors, and lots of hard work, they opened the Crystal Mountain ski area in November 1962. A vice president of the new corporation was Leo Gallagher, my personal hero in this little story.
So, to answer PDXSkier's question: Yes, Crystal Mountain was special before it was developed. But skiers at the time, many of them long-time backcountry skiers, decided that it was worth developing, and preferable to spoiling Mt Rainier. As a long-time Crystal Mountain skier (my dad was a founding stockholder) and a fan of Paradise without lifts, I tip my hat to them.
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- Jeff Huber
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<br>PDXSkier, As a "Portlander" I disagree with your views. Particularly I do not think this is a Portland vs Seattle issue. I believe the consensus here is the same you'd hear from Portland backcountry skiers, no one wishes to see Adams developed regardless of where they live (I think). <br><br>I'm as much of a freshiez whore as anyone else. I'd certainly *love* to see less dull terrain, less crowds, and better winter bc access to Adams, but not at the high cost of such a unique resource. If by chance I know you I do not mean any harsh feelings towards you. I believe reasonable people can disagree about this issue. Now how about we work on getting Ullr to send us more snow?<br>It is not fair to Portlanders for Seattle <snip>
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- Jeff Huber
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<br>Well . . . last winter I skied virtually every weekend at Mt Hood Meadows (I had a seasonpass). The crowds were on average worse then I've seen at other resorts, particularly Kirkwood in California which I've skied extensively (was a passholder for 4 years). I've only skied a handful of times at Crystal and only once at Alpental. The average liftline wait at Meadows did seem longer then my limited experiences at these two resorts. However I can say that the onetime I went to Whistler the crowds were worse then Meadows' average, though this was President's Day Weekend.<br><br>I've never skied at Timberline in the winter as the terrain is quite lackluster. Ski bowl I've been to about a dozen times, despite having really slow lifts it does not seem to get as crowded as Meadows though its low-elevation precludes reliable snow.<br><br>To me as big of an issue as the crowds is the lack of decent terrain. Everything is quite dull, there's nothing remotely close to Crystal, any Tahoe resort or Whistler.. Can someone who is a regular at the 3 Hood resorts (28 lifts between them) clue me in? Is it THAT much worse?
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- hankj
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- Skier66
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