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Topic: 12,16,2010- White Pass, Washington (Read 9076 times)
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Marcus
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That's the kind of thing that's not going to be very helpful here, Passenger.
If y'all can't come to some agreement and neither of you will soften your position, please let it go. Snowolf's clarified his feelings and actions that day at length -- you don't have to believe him, of course, though I'm not sure why you're insisting on that.
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Passenger
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Marcus, I believe you misunderstand my motivation for posting here. I have no interest in debating Snowolf. The value of this thread is in facilitating a discussion on backcountry safety. There must be some interest if the number of views is any indication. I have been lurking on this site for too many years to remember and will continue to do so, however if my style of making a point is detrimental to your fine work then I promise that you have heard the last from me. I would like to end with one thought.
The best line to date is from Jim Oker “Anyone, however, who is enjoying good backcountry powder turns and also thinks they can squeeze out ALL (or even almost all) risk of being a slide victim is fooling themself.” It matters little if you make a small lapse in judgment or a major boneheaded move, either can result in the same consequence. Imagine living with yourself if after losing a ski partner, you knew in your heart that it might have been preventable if not for your lack of preparation. By the way, if you haven’t read it before check out the article on strategic digging on the Backcountry Access website.
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Marcus
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Marcus, I believe you misunderstand my motivation for posting here. I have no interest in debating Snowolf. The value of this thread is in facilitating a discussion on backcountry safety. There must be some interest if the number of views is any indication. I have been lurking on this site for too many years to remember and will continue to do so, however if my style of making a point is detrimental to your fine work then I promise that you have heard the last from me.
Fair enough and no problem -- I think you're adding good points and the discussion on BC safety is certainly worth the time.
100% agree with your assessment of Jim's observation, as well.
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Scotsman
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Well Savegondor I can assure you I'm not lazy and I don't want to die in an avalanche and regularly ski with my son and friends and don't want them to die either so I take avy safety very seriously but have never being inclined to dogma either.
When I first started BC skking and for several years thereafter, I read my avy report, even took a copy with me and dug pits like a demented badger.
Now I ski a lot so I usually really watch the weather, wind directions and temperature and I found the longer I did this that the NWAC report by its very nature was only a generalized statement and I would find the micro -terrain I was skiing significantly different from the NWAC report. I also found that I would mentally use the NWAC report to justify my decisions..."NWAC says it's moderate and it's not a NE slope and NWAC says it's well bonded" etc...... Sometimes I used the NWAC report to justify NOT skiing a slope that seemed stable because the NWAC report said considerable or high. Based upon the recurring disparity between the generalized NWAC report and what I was finding I decided that my observations, feelings, intuition were more important that the NWAC report and that I would stop reading it and be , even subconsciously,influenced by it.
I also stopped digging pits( unless in a new area) because I again found the data only marginally useful compared to the data I could pick up from being observant and doing small tests, hasty pits, the feel of the snow, cutting rollovers , stomping during kick turns. I call my mental process "progression". As the day/tour progresses, I try and form an opinion and will also try and start with less steep slopes and progress to steeper stuff as my comfort level with the stability grows( or vice-versa).
Now we all like to think( and we all like to be considered" experts" if we're honest) that the more we do this we develop some ninja sense and can somehow determine from the the way the snow feels, reacts and that our intuition is finely developed as to how safe a slope is. I call bullshit on myself most days and readily admit that I'm hoping for the best despite all my tests and conclusions from my" progression". But it does help my stack the deck( my decision) hopefully in my favor.
However, to be honest, all the above is also subject to peer pressure and the group I'm with and sometimes I just follow and drop in and hope for the best and sometimes I drop in first and hope for the best because I really really want to ski that powder. Bad I know but I find the human dynamics are usually far more powerful that most of us are willing or like to admit to.
Only last week I backed off a slope that didn't feel right and the very next day skied a very committing slope in serious avy terrain( same aspect, same snow conditions) because.... oh man it was going to be so good.
I'm thankful for the forgiving maritime snowpack I ski in as I'm pretty sure that if I lived in CO I'd probably have been caught in several slides by now and maybe even dead. Not because I'm always pushing the envelope ( far from it)) or because I'm uneducated about the danger and snow conditions( I'm not) but because of the simple laws of probability and the fact that micro-climate and micro terrain are going to render some of my assumptions incorrect....eventually.
I also realized that unless I was constantly willing to ALWAYS be very conservative( which for a while I was.... and it would leave me feeling unfulfilled) I wasn't going to be able to ski the slopes and powder I wanted to and would miss out so I'm willing sometimes to take a risk and roll the dice.
But that's me and I'm not advocating my practices for anybody else.
The more I do this and the longer I observe myself and my partners and how decisions are reached I am convinced that skiing safety in avy terrain has more to do with Game Theory than snow science.
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« Last Edit: 12/26/10, 01:37 PM by Scotsman »
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Chief Etiquette Officer of TAY and TAY's #1 Poster
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Snowolf
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« Last Edit: 01/24/11, 01:47 AM by Snowolf »
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Koda
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too many self appointed "experts" acting as the thought police trying to mind everyone else`s business down here. When you are not out yelling at the kids to get off of your lawn, I bet you are the guy in the left lane of the freeway trying to control everyone else`s speed too...... 
High five Snowolf.
maybe the admin should create a column specific to avi safety talk so these trip reports can stay what they should be. A trip report is for sharing with the community what you found, not for cutting people down so you can brag on your expertise....
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lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2
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checker
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Snowolf and Passenger – this lurker begs you to stop the sniping!
We finally have an interesting and fruitful dialogue going in this thread that transcends an inconsequential TR about Hogback or a sideways reference to Shakespeare. Passenger’s first post was inflammatory, no doubt: but look at the result. People are re-assessing how they approach safety in the BC and that’s what’s important, so good on ya for that. Revising what you originally wrote over and over in an attempt to justify yourself to the readers of this thread is counterproductive, Snowolf – it doesn’t matter at this point in time. It doesn’t appear to me that Passenger is trying to make a display of his or her expertise – rather, he/she is throwing out his/her opinion for discussion in an open forum. And there have been some fascinating contributions from several parties that we can all learn from. To paraphrase Snowolf: I like to think the contributors to this thread might have saved a life!
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savegondor
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had you done the ski cut you might also be dead.
BTW Happy Holidays to all!
Not all science is exact and perfect. I get what you are saying about utilizing as much info as possible. I can't tell you the amount of geophysical projects I worked that were cut and dry science according to the engineers and ended up being a cluster of additional costs due to broken science.
Last year we dug a pit on the upper reach of a bowl and determined the snow condition to be a green light. We had over 100 years of cumulative backcountry experience in the group.
I Skied right below the pit area and the whole bowl broke loose with a 2ft crown 100 feet wide. There were even two sets of ski tracks already in the bowl from some other party before us.
Had I done a ski cut it would have given me better results than the pit gave me.
At least I would not have been caught in the middle of a near catastrophe where I had no choice, but had to out run while 10 truckloads of cement 15ft high chased me down the slope.
I really am a big advocate of the NWAC avy reports. I just don't use them as a go to tool. The NWAC avalanche reports come out pretty late in the day too. By the time the report is out we are already on the hill doing our thing. So I guess it is good retrospect info after the fact to compare our field study to gain further knowledge.
My knowledge of BC conditions has changed so much from my 20's to 30's. And now late in my 40's I wonder what I was thinking in my 30's and how I survived the teen and twenty years. The reality is that I have a lot of exposure and for today I am still alive. FWIW I am more concerned with my exposure than if I am making logical estimates of the conditions.
The much greater danger is just driving to the hill than any snow condition I encounter.
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Snowolf
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« Last Edit: 01/24/11, 01:48 AM by Snowolf »
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T. Eastman
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A good discussion was attempted to be nipped in the bud by the moderator. Perhaps T-A-Y needs a re-evaluation of its policies on frank discussions. The moderation is personal opinion inserted with the earnestness of a school marm. PNW social correctness rears its head... a good way to encourage group think, especially in regards to avi considerations.
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Joedabaker
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had you done the ski cut you might also be dead.
I realize that I am not going to change your belief system about pits and ski cuts. But digging in to a certain belief hardly cast the image of being open to as much information as possible. Maybe, quite possibly, if there are so many experienced BC travelers that hold the contention that ski cuts are a good idea, then possibly there is something to the possibility that it's not such a bad idea to incorporate into your systematic assessment.
If you know how to do a proper ski cut you have a safe exit strategy in place before the ski cut is made. Had I just done a ski cut after the pit, would be a better way to say this. Then I would have never been caught in the middle of the slide at all.
I am going to sound arrogant but a lot of people don't really know how to do a proper ski cut. I'm not suggesting this is your case, but if one is not a very good skier, maybe doing a ski cut is not a great idea. Going out into the middle of the bowl is just not a good place to do a ski cut. They are done with very good intention and planning. I learned a lot of my techniques on ski cutting from the old guard of the highway department avalanche control where every cut was mindful of staying alive and controlling a slope. I remember thinking, why don't these guys just ski this thing? I waited as we all took turns managing and ski cutting the slopes, then moved to the next position.
I have also learned that a lot of skiers think they are much better skiers than they actually are.
The reality is we are not as good as skiers as what our office workers think we are.
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If it's called common sense, why isn't it more common?
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Robie
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I have also learned that a lot of skiers think they are much better skiers than they actually are. I wish you would keep my name out of this .
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"I bought my rope at Walmart ,my gloves at costco but paid dearly for my dynafits"
Apparant Moderator of what sucks
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shaman
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So, in the interest of not upsetting the apple cart here, I will peace out now and leave you folks to your own club. I can post trip reports on splitboard. Com without creating a firestorm.
I am sorry it has come to this Snowolf. Since moving south from Bellingham I have found myself touring solo quite often. I would prefer not to, but most of the people I know here are either not interested in BC or don't have the time. So what it comes down to is I either get out alone or not at all. I want to come home alive and well and do what is in my power to be as safe as possible given the situation.
People's opinion of what is safe and unsafe while touring the BC will always be slightly different. These opinions are what makes the world go round. The one true unsafe condition is when someone becomes injured or worse.
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Snowolf
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« Last Edit: 01/24/11, 01:49 AM by Snowolf »
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davidG
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I wish you would keep my name out of this .
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"Maybe we should ban hikers from anywhere that there is a potential threat to surface water?" [courtesy Newtrout, 2011]
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checker
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Seriously? Snowolf and Passenger sign off and no one has anything more to add about BC avalanche protocols in the PNW in the last 24 hours?
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Snowolf
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« Last Edit: 01/24/11, 01:50 AM by Snowolf »
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savegondor
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Well Savegondor I can assure you I'm not lazy and I don't want to die in an avalanche and regularly ski with my son and friends and don't want them to die either so I take avy safety very seriously but have never being inclined to dogma either.
When I first started BC skking and for several years thereafter, I read my avy report, even took a copy with me and dug pits like a demented badger.
Now I ski a lot so I usually really watch the weather, wind directions and temperature and I found the longer I did this that the NWAC report by its very nature was only a generalized statement and I would find the micro -terrain I was skiing significantly different from the NWAC report. I also found that I would mentally use the NWAC report to justify my decisions..."NWAC says it's moderate and it's not a NE slope and NWAC says it's well bonded" etc...... Sometimes I used the NWAC report to justify NOT skiing a slope that seemed stable because the NWAC report said considerable or high. Based upon the recurring disparity between the generalized NWAC report and what I was finding I decided that my observations, feelings, intuition were more important that the NWAC report and that I would stop reading it and be , even subconsciously,influenced by it.
I also stopped digging pits( unless in a new area) because I again found the data only marginally useful compared to the data I could pick up from being observant and doing small tests, hasty pits, the feel of the snow, cutting rollovers , stomping during kick turns. I call my mental process "progression". As the day/tour progresses, I try and form an opinion and will also try and start with less steep slopes and progress to steeper stuff as my comfort level with the stability grows( or vice-versa).
Now we all like to think( and we all like to be considered" experts" if we're honest) that the more we do this we develop some ninja sense and can somehow determine from the the way the snow feels, reacts and that our intuition is finely developed as to how safe a slope is. I call bullshit on myself most days and readily admit that I'm hoping for the best despite all my tests and conclusions from my" progression". But it does help my stack the deck( my decision) hopefully in my favor.
However, to be honest, all the above is also subject to peer pressure and the group I'm with and sometimes I just follow and drop in and hope for the best and sometimes I drop in first and hope for the best because I really really want to ski that powder. Bad I know but I find the human dynamics are usually far more powerful that most of us are willing or like to admit to.
Only last week I backed off a slope that didn't feel right and the very next day skied a very committing slope in serious avy terrain( same aspect, same snow conditions) because.... oh man it was going to be so good.
I'm thankful for the forgiving maritime snowpack I ski in as I'm pretty sure that if I lived in CO I'd probably have been caught in several slides by now and maybe even dead. Not because I'm always pushing the envelope ( far from it)) or because I'm uneducated about the danger and snow conditions( I'm not) but because of the simple laws of probability and the fact that micro-climate and micro terrain are going to render some of my assumptions incorrect....eventually.
I also realized that unless I was constantly willing to ALWAYS be very conservative( which for a while I was.... and it would leave me feeling unfulfilled) I wasn't going to be able to ski the slopes and powder I wanted to and would miss out so I'm willing sometimes to take a risk and roll the dice.
But that's me and I'm not advocating my practices for anybody else.
The more I do this and the longer I observe myself and my partners and how decisions are reached I am convinced that skiing safety in avy terrain has more to do with Game Theory than snow science.
Scotsman: I'm actually finding your argument via experience compelling. Let's just say you end up having such a good point that it get's published as a new way of assessing danger. I'm still wanting the majority of people in this forum and 'out there' to THINK that they MUST dig a pit. B/C, like I've repeated a zillion times in this thread. It slows them down. And that I think is more valuable than any data.
That said, I do beg to differ on the quality of data from a pit. I think there is more quality data than you think there generally is. Might I even suggest there may be a problem with user error here. Not digging in a cornice are you? 
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Scotsman
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Like I said Savegondor.... most of the time I'm just hoping for the best . But seriously... I'm not saying a pit doesn't give some useful information( if dug in the right place which is sometimes very difficult) but what I dislike is dogma and the belief by many that digging a pit on every tour or even every slope is a necessity and that those that don't are somehow unsafe or reckless and more importantly that if you do you are a now a paragon of knowledge and safe.
I've skied with a lot of people over the years and honestly some of the unsafest in terms of handling themselves in avy terrain where the ones that could quote the avy handbook and spout out CT22, Q2 and all the avy lingo. They'd dig a pit in a unrepresentative location... declare it good and then ski over a convex rollover with a big wind pocket. I call them "educated fools" and there are many in the BC and from my perspective the number is growing.
People like dogma, they lap it up if you will excuse the pun as similar to religion it gives them comfort and faith without having to think too hard ( or even at all).
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Chief Etiquette Officer of TAY and TAY's #1 Poster
Poet Laureate of TAY.
Chairman and Founder of FOTAY( Friends of TAY)
Moderator of the moderators.
"Most Brilliant Move" of the 11/12 ski season
" Knows what he is talking about"
Expert Typist.
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~Link~
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Great TR, Snowolf. Thanks to everyone for the avalanche of input. Now for the ibuprofen...
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filbo
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Thought I'd reply to passenger's question as I haven't been on the computer for a while.
I remember you guys at the top of Gunsight and really admired the nice tracks you two put down after ours. Hope you enjoyed the skin track I put in as well. I don't always dig a pit or do a ski cut there, especially if I skiied it the day or two before and am aware of its condition as well as how much snow has fallen. I don't like to give to much away about good solid stashes, but since you mention the slide factor there the two semi-chutes are so steep they always sluff slide and often self-slide, which creates a pretty good scenario for not accumulating too much snow up top. It's pretty easy to outski the sluff there or just ski to the side if you want to. I'm not trying to sound too unconcerned about avy awareness, because I often dig there if it has been a while since I was there, but as I mentioned I have been hitting it on a very regular basis and that is why when I saw how much snow had filled it in and how good it it was and after putting in the trail, well I felt very good about jumping in and getting FIRST TRACKS! before you guys. Hope that answers your question.
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checker
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Filbo: you're kidding about this....right?
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altasnob
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White Pass Rocks!
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filbo
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Not at all, checkers as I don't know what I'd be kidding about unless it might be too much left brain activity and not enough right. just kidding.
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« Last Edit: 01/04/11, 12:10 PM by filbo »
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