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Author Topic: November 28: Paradise  (Read 24829 times)
Scotsman
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #25 on: 11/29/10, 11:48 PM »

I'm not trying to open any minds Jim, I wouldn't be so presumptuous. Just ranting as usual and bemoaning the fact that many areas  I used to enjoy are overrun with herding TAYers. Selfish I know, but at least I do something about it and find other areas to go or choose times when I know they won't be there.

If it's any consultation to you, my twin and I were severely bullied at school as well but for different reasons. My father used to report the poachers on the salmon river that ran through the village to the water bailiff to try and protect the salmon runs. Their sons used to try and beat us up in revenge .  It was like fight club EVERY day!  I actually enjoyed it eventually and looked forward to the coming fight no matter the outcome. But you already knew that.  Wink

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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #26 on: 11/30/10, 05:49 AM »

About 25+ years ago, over the Thanksgiving holiday, my parents were here visiting from Ohio.

There was  terrific snowfall that year. I outfitted my parents with old Trak cross country skis and took them to Paradise.

They had never been on skis before in their life. Total "gappers." It was a beautiful day and we toured all over the place.

Now they are very old. Just the other day, my father reminded me of the only time that he was on skis and about the amazing day at Paradise. It is obviously one of his favorite memories. And mine.

The wilderness and mountains, and their glad tidings, as pointed out by that great Scotsman, John Muir, are there for everyone who wishes to partake.
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Andrew Carey
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #27 on: 11/30/10, 08:28 AM »

Hilarious thread LOL  Before TAYERs there were, and still are, Mountaineer groups from NW at all accessible bc areas; they fit Scotsman's stereotype well, almost always in large groups; and I'll bet lots of TAYers started, or still are, Mountaineers.  Sure Paradise is getting more crowded (I've seen it in my 20+ years skiing there)--the population of WWA has gone up markedly and newer AT gear and snowshoes make the bc more accessible to massively more people than the old XC , Tele, and AT gear.  Paradise would be a LOT more crowded if the Mount Tahoma Ski Trail area had not been developed going on 20 yrs ago; many snowshoers and, especially XC skiers go there.  It is getting very difficult to XC ski around Paradise with all the snowshoers and postholers.

I agree that the slopes just above Paradise Valley Road are not really bc (I made a comment on Pierce's post above that) but the rest of the area from the Tatoosh, to Van Trump Park, Nisqually Glacier, Muir Snowfield, Edith Basin, the back bowl so disparaged by Scotsman, Mazama Ridge down to Reflection Lakes are some of the best bc that can be gained in a reasonable winter day in WWA.  I skied there yesterday and saw 1 other skier a ridge away and the tracks of another skier (that split off well before I stopped climbing).


And I have had to break trail in fresh snow more times than I could count on an  Excel spreadsheet :-); I (I ski over 50% of the time by myself, 45% with just my wife), and my wife and I, have marveled how great it was to have the backcountry all to myself (ourselves) on such beautiful days with such great snow and such spectacular scenery.  I hope more and more people start to feel it is unworthy of being called backcountry and go back to the lift-served areas they love so much LOL

Oh, and I like when skiers use the same uptrack, even if I broke trail; I agree if would be good etiquette to continue on breaking new trail if one followed a new up track, but when the object is the much vilified here back bowl (where everyone seems to go) what can you expect?  I pack up and leave if more than one other person shows up (unless they are the 2-3 friends I have).  I just wish snowshoers would use the same up track.  I rarely ski up out of the Paradise Parking Lot to Panorama Point on a weekend or when the snow is old because I can't stand the feeling of being in a cattle feed lot.  The effect is compounded by all those who need to create their slight variations on the way up. 

Wishing you all good skiing, especially front-country and side-country and giving this free advice: Don't go to Paradise or the Tatoosh, both are severely overcrowded, the snow sucks, and the scenery is terrible and if you ask those who heli-ski, it is not even backcountry at all!  Wink Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: 11/30/10, 08:37 AM by acarey » Logged

Andy Carey, Nisqually Park, 3500 feet below Paradise
ron j
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #28 on: 11/30/10, 08:39 AM »

Took a group of novice bc folks on a boot pack up to Alta Vista area Sunday. Laid a boot pack for many skiers on AT gear with just my boots- no snowshoes. Except my follower was Ron J who was a super rad guy. When you drive to the only plowed road with access to good snow (when it's preseason at the ski area) and meet novices learning the craft- please be nice at least. No BS. Sometimes it sucks being the only person with a splitboard that you know not in Alaska. Trying to generate some interest here!
And no! I didn't bootpack your skin track! The skiers followed one I made! Wink

Guilty as charged.
I found it ironic and quite enjoyable to have "out-fumbled" a group of 4 or 5 snowboarders (one of them post holing) only to discover their uptrack heading to the very ridge that the MadDog and I had our sights on, in snow requiring knee deep trailbreaking. So as long as their up track was heading in the general direction we were going, we found it quite handy, albeit knowing that we may need to relinquish first tracks and/or first dibs on lines at the top.
When we caught them seemingly transitioning at the top we thanked them for breaking trail and moved along the ridge a bit more to give them some room, assuming that we'd have to share the virgin, untracked slope with them.
We pulled skins and had a snack while waiting for them to go first and “claim a line”. Then, still not seeing any tracks, spooned in two sets of tracks for our first run down. We looked up to see what line the boarders were going to claim to discover that they had built a great kicker and were doing hucks off it. They were just climbing back up from their landing spot obviously having decided to focus on the hucks and not bother riding down and subjecting themselves to the longer climb cycles. So we just continued our runs spooning tracks across the slope.
About the time to head down the snowboarders joined us at the top where we were doing our transitions and CornRIDE introduced himself and asked if we knew a clean line back to the parking lot. We did and they followed us down.
Interestingly, CornRIDE and his group and one other young couple on snowshoes (who avoided the good ski lines – Thank You for that), were the only folks we saw all day outside the parking lot.
Thanks, again, for the uptrack, CornRIDE. I’m glad you and your friends had a good time; and Awesome Jumps! Smiley


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aaron_wright
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #29 on: 11/30/10, 09:06 AM »

I can't believe you guys actually encounter other skiers when touring, I think it's happened once to me and that was near Steven's Pass.
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airpoppoff
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #30 on: 11/30/10, 09:49 AM »

I can't believe you guys actually encounter other skiers when touring, I think it's happened once to me and that was near Steven's Pass.
No Joke! I'm moving to Alaska, WA is way too crowded!
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JimG
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #31 on: 11/30/10, 11:35 AM »

I have learned to accept that I will see people when touring (anywhere) in Cascades.  And when I want to find a new place to ride I just start looking at TAY to see where all the good spots are...  I wonder how all those other people out there learn about where to pile up at the trailhead?
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cornRIDE
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #32 on: 11/30/10, 12:00 PM »

Guilty as charged.
I found it ironic and quite enjoyable to have "out-fumbled" a group of 4 or 5 snowboarders (one of them post holing) only to discover their uptrack heading to the very ridge that the MadDog and I had our sights on, in snow requiring knee deep trailbreaking. So as long as their up track was heading in the general direction we were going, we found it quite handy, albeit knowing that we may need to relinquish first tracks and/or first dibs on lines at the top.
When we caught them seemingly transitioning at the top we thanked them for breaking trail and moved along the ridge a bit more to give them some room, assuming that we'd have to share the virgin, untracked slope with them.
We pulled skins and had a snack while waiting for them to go first and “claim a line”. Then, still not seeing any tracks, spooned in two sets of tracks for our first run down. We looked up to see what line the boarders were going to claim to discover that they had built a great kicker and were doing hucks off it. They were just climbing back up from their landing spot obviously having decided to focus on the hucks and not bother riding down and subjecting themselves to the longer climb cycles. So we just continued our runs spooning tracks across the slope.
About the time to head down the snowboarders joined us at the top where we were doing our transitions and CornRIDE introduced himself and asked if we knew a clean line back to the parking lot. We did and they followed us down.
Interestingly, CornRIDE and his group and one other young couple on snowshoes (who avoided the good ski lines – Thank You for that), were the only folks we saw all day outside the parking lot.
Thanks, again, for the uptrack, CornRIDE. I’m glad you and your friends had a good time; and Awesome Jumps! Smiley




good to meet you Ron. Thanks for sharing the slope so kindly with us. your courtesy and attitude stand out to me after hearing some of these 'i'm so hardcore and i can't believe you don't know shit' opinions about "wilderness experiences" at tourist city USA.

I might be a bit more hesitant to introduce myself to the people I meet up there this year.



there was plenty of pow to bomb out a slope with landings and spoon some lines with kind strangers! Wink

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Alexander
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #33 on: 11/30/10, 02:42 PM »

we recently took up bc skiing for the solitude but are sadly discovering that you really have to search for it these days

The number of BC skiers will continue to grow and the only solution is access to new terrain. Otherwise it will be crowded along the few ploughed roads.
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Andrew Carey
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #34 on: 11/30/10, 03:21 PM »

The number of BC skiers will continue to grow and the only solution is access to new terrain. Otherwise it will be crowded along the few ploughed roads.

And the current tendency is to not plow roads, even close roads altogether, eliminate snow parks, etc. as the economy remains sluggish, costs rise, and revenues fall.  It will be very interesting to see what happens to snow park plowing in this heavy snow winter.
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Andy Carey, Nisqually Park, 3500 feet below Paradise
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #35 on: 11/30/10, 03:33 PM »

And the current tendency is to

you forgot the expand National Park and wilderness areas, restrict motorized access......
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Splitter
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #36 on: 11/30/10, 08:25 PM »

Don't go to the mall on Black Friday and then complain that someone was buying "your" stuff.

Darn, Josh beat me to the sarcasm.

If you want close to the car, there wil be booters, copycats, poachers, etc...  I agree with Lowell, accept reality and find somewhere that will satisfy your needs.  I was at Hyak Friday and ran into a large group (maybe TAY'ers?)  Some were better skiiers than others but all were pleasant and we all enjoyed sharing the hill.  A group of two included one skiier who farmed craters.  Who cares, I'm able to go around them.  We are all still newbies at something.

I appreciate TAY's inclusive, non-aggressive feeling.  If herd mentality helps people get out and enjoy life, I'm OK with it.  When it encourages dangerous behavior, I am impressed that experienced TAY'ers have the generosity to calmly and repeatedly offer guidance.
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steveski
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #37 on: 11/30/10, 09:25 PM »

I have to note while reading I found myself thinking: "This sounds like a CC.com thread..."  Grin

That being said, good points made by all.
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Robie
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #38 on: 11/30/10, 10:39 PM »

Ive been following this thread not needing to say anything in a hurry.
Just kinda savoring the fact that I was one of Alpymarr's "Cool and Mellow guys"
We had thanked him for resetting and adding to a track that had been on going since last weekend. I'll say this we were frankly impressed with his skill/atheleticism and stayed short of his prine runs a little south of us.
Now to set some straight the area under discussion was not the MAzama Back bowl It was west facing MAzama ridge midway between 4th crossing and Indian Cliff area.
On this particular day the gate didn't open till 11 and visibility above treeline was iffy. Hence a lot skiers of all levels were seeking quick powder in a smaller area.Our preference given more time would have been to actually go to Mazama back bowl or beyond.
Alpymarr made a wise choice to use parts of a previous track and rip off 9 runs in high style. Us Geezers got in 6 and then headed  back home. No guilt on our part as we and others had set the track the week before.
A lot has been said here about "finding ones own snow".
but how far does this go?  Should I a make a separate track up into the tatoosh when one exists ?
Even with rising numbers of backcountry skiers  given longer days and good visibility and more road access there is plenty of room. More Road access,earlier gate openings, are  something we ought to be fighting for instead of pointing fingers at each other.
Cayuse pass and white river rd used to be plowed all winter.
Frankly I see all these newer skiers as potential allies and treat them as such.




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Andrew Carey
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #39 on: 12/01/10, 06:30 AM »

Ive been following this thread not needing to say anything in a hurry.
Just kinda savoring the fact that I was one of Alpymarr's "Cool and Mellow guys"
We had thanked him for resetting and adding to a track that had been on going since last weekend. I'll say this we were frankly impressed with his skill/atheleticism and stayed short of his prine runs a little south of us.
Now to set some straight the area under discussion was not the MAzama Back bowl It was west facing MAzama ridge midway between 4th crossing and Indian Cliff area.
On this particular day the gate didn't open till 11 and visibility above treeline was iffy. Hence a lot skiers of all levels were seeking quick powder in a smaller area.Our preference given more time would have been to actually go to Mazama back bowl or beyond.
Alpymarr made a wise choice to use parts of a previous track and rip off 9 runs in high style. Us Geezers got in 6 and then headed  back home. No guilt on our part as we and others had set the track the week before.
 A lot has been said here about "finding ones own snow".
but how far does this go?  Should I a make a separate track up into the tatoosh when one exists ?
Even with rising numbers of backcountry skiers  given longer days and good visibility and more road access there is plenty of room. More Road access,earlier gate openings, are  something we ought to be fighting for instead of pointing fingers at each other.
Cayuse pass and white river rd used to be plowed all winter.
Frankly I see all these newer skiers as potential allies and treat them as such.






cool & mellow, Robie :-)
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Andy Carey, Nisqually Park, 3500 feet below Paradise
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #40 on: 12/01/10, 10:16 AM »

Nice to meet you Robie! Good points. These gentlemen were kind enough to actually interact with me..we need more of this in crowded areas. Just simply communicating makes things so much easier, and you may even make friends. Its just the whole barrage of huge groups who wont give you the time of day that swoop in from above with their ten guys, make huge GS turns, spot your track and then use it to kill the place in 5 minutes. No hello, nothing. Thats what happened and thats why I brought it up. Common courtesy is all I ask. If more people would behave like Robies group the "front country" spots would be made so much more enjoyable.
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savegondor
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #41 on: 12/01/10, 10:24 AM »

Waitaminute...crowded, overtracked and obnoxiously touristy up at Paradise!? Nahh, ya don't say! *rolleyes* What do you expect? The Paradise environs hardly even count as backcountry; after all, a road gets plowed up over 5,000 feet. If the book "Ski Touring for Dummies" was written, the first chapter would include a map to Paradise. It's the third stop for a great number of BC noobs, right after the gear shop to buy their setup and Starbucks for a latte.

Don't get me wrong, I end up there every so often myself (generally due to laziness or ride sharing, or conditions being crap everywhere else), but I am certainly not expecting solitude when I go. Grumbling about lack of etiquette or solitude at Paradise seems akin to whining about too many kids at disneyland, I-5 being crowded in Seattle at 5pm on a Friday afternoon or the Mariners losing.



I'm in with Josh here.  I don't especially like competing for lines but I also don't expect some set of 'rules' to be followed.  Paradise has great access and hence is going to get every type of person up there.

I also agree with the statement that there is a LOT OF LAND to be skied in WA.  Hell even most of the area's outside of Mazama go untouched.

i.e.
 
Van Trump
Van Trump to Nisqually has some sick lines
Some harder lines around Nisqually chute don't get hit.  
Lines in the Cowlitz area

Hell even the backside of Mazama is sick and rarely gets hit.  The Stevens Creek area has all kinds of sick lines I've been eying but admittedly too lazy to hit.  

I've also been looking into a bunch of close stuff around Index and up on the Mountain Loop/ Darrington area.  closer than Paradise...why nobody go?
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Splitboard Graham
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #42 on: 12/01/10, 10:53 PM »

thanks to everyone who has contributed to the furtherance of backcountry philosophy and etiquette, in this thread and elsewhere, especially to those who have made themselves vulnerable. this is for no one in particular and everyone in general.

do we earn turns to escape from humanity, or to be more in touch with what it really means to be human? [roll your eyes here] wherever we ski, board, shoe, hike, we should be treating each other and the environment with respect. that is not too much to ask. perhaps alpymarr is guilty of expecting too much from his fellow snow junkies? should we ask that he be more cynical of his fellows and expect them to be d-bags? i'm actually not being rhetorical... i think its a legitimate question to grapple with as we make kick steps or make kick-turns. however, lashing out at each other , however kindly ("a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand"), for expecting, hoping, for the best in people seems counterproductive to me. we do need more quality communication; we do need to treat ourselves and each other better. perhaps we should temper our expectations, not let the "herds" disgust us, help educate each other and be open to education. just as in other situations where people interact with each other, on the trail, on the road, on the water, there ARE rules or etiquettes to follow [here I disagree with Lowell]. these are meant to keep us safe from the environment and from each other, whether from triggered avy's, collisions, or fists. i think we kid ourselves if we believe that we can exist in a libertarian powtopia with other people. after all, we have a code of ethics on TAY, and public lands do have rules and regulations, and perhaps we should create and promulgate a code of ethics for the backcountry (or maybe there is one and my ignorance shines!). i do not think it is unreasonable to be irritated when a mob uses my skin track and doesn't say word one - no thank you, no howdy, no gooday... i think we should politely tell people when they aren't being polite, and i think we should be using our horns more on the roads! as scotsman indicated, how are we supposed to know if WE are being the d-bag if no one tells us?

peace, love, unity, respect, and apologies for the f'ing essay. and for not using any emoticons. my bad. lastly, i'd like to thank Lagunita's Brown Shugga for making this possible.
[full disclosure: alpymarr is a personal friend and powcomplice]
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ellingferd
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #43 on: 12/03/10, 10:19 AM »

The irony of complaining about overcrowding at a particular spot while writing a trip report about this spot is almost too much to bear. Stop going to paradise if you dont like seeing people. Dont complain about people if you are forced to go to paradise because you always ski alone. It only makes you look like an asshole if you are the guy up at paradise giving everyone else shit for not knowing the "rules".

As for following skin tracks, how can you complain about powder not being effecitvely shredded and then expect everyone to make their own track? If anyone would like to use my skin track at any time feel free. I dont care, and I dont know why people make such a big deal about this. I am happy to facilitate easier shredding for others. If you're going to get all protective of your skin track, go somewhere futher out where you can be sure no one will be taking advantage of your oh so hard work. Boo Hoo. As for snowshoes on the skin track, get over it. Consider the messed up skin track more practice and fitness for you. If you are skinning in an area where snowshoers/bootpackers are, then you are skinning in an area that is popular. Expect it, as you arent really getting after it in the backcountry if you are seeing bootpackers and snowshoers. I suggest you find some new, and undoubtedly better terrain. You wont find any snowshoers or bootpackers off the backside of Rock Mtn.


Finally, if you Tayers want to get better at slaying the pow, get out of the backcountry and into the resort. No one ever became a good skier by ski touring. If they did it probably took at least 5 times as long.




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davidG
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #44 on: 12/03/10, 04:19 PM »

...
peace, love, unity, respect, and apologies for the f'ing essay. and for not using any emoticons. my bad. lastly, i'd like to thank Lagunita's Brown Shugga for making this possible.
[full disclosure: alpymarr is a personal friend and powcomplice]

we be stylin now 'mon.. Cool
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Splitboard Graham
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #45 on: 12/05/10, 10:29 AM »

this is almost as good as east coast/west coast beef! [and easily as banal]

@ellingferd [and other "trolls" and haters of civility]: perhaps the real irony is that an off-hand complaint about rudeness in the mountains garners rudeness on the webs...  Grin
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Marcus
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #46 on: 12/06/10, 06:33 AM »

This whole thing has been blown way out of proportion, after re-reading alpymarr's first post.  That is, of course, the way of the internet.  Busy places like Paradise will always have lots of folks, many of whom will not know what they should or should not do with a set skin track, especially since half of it is the opinion of the individual skier.

The other concept, that there exists a set of "TAYers" who are uniform and consistent in their approach (and apparent disregard and lack of skill) to the mountains, is similarly ridiculous.  A widely cast net intended to catch as many fish as possible.  It may not be the textbook definition of trolling, but it seems to fit.
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ron j
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #47 on: 12/06/10, 10:33 AM »

FWIW, Doug and I saw NOBODY during our tour in the Paradise area yesterday.
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cornRIDE
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Re: November 28: Paradise
« Reply #48 on: 12/07/10, 09:43 AM »

FWIW, Doug and I saw NOBODY during our tour in the Paradise area yesterday.

GASP!


Wink

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