Home > Trip Reports > November 28: Paradise

November 28: Paradise

11/15/10
WA Cascades West Slopes South (Mt Rainier)
26223
48
Posted by alpymarr on 11/29/10 5:07am
Headed straight out to Mazama Ridge and put in the track on the left side of the meadows. Seems as if I'm always putting in the track...although I did follow remnants of an old one. As usual, hordes of people followed with 2 guys following me up and the rest putting in a track down the road a ways under Indian Cliffs. These guys (didn't catch their names) were cool and mellow and we were able to exist in happiness on the same slope/track. I know that lapping runs at Paradise on the weekend involves sharing, but after about the 10th person joined the party it was time to move on down the ridge. Conditions were fantastic, especially before everyone showed up and destroyed the slope (powder conservation people!!) Blower powder, great coverage and lightly snowing skies most of the day. Got in 9 laps off Mazama in various locations without having to poach anyone elses area  ;). Every run was superb and Im sure everyone up there yesterday will agree. Called it quits after postholers with skis and snowboards strapped to backpacks obliterated the uptrack. Should continue to be awesome, especially with this upcoming dump. Pics to come later today..
New name for Mazama Bowl= The sheep pen or the Lemming lair.
Powder preservation with TAYers=OXYMORON.
How many TAYers does it take to F**K up a powder slope=ONE.
How do you trap a TAYer?. Put in a skin track and then backtrack in the same track, they will follow until it ends and then be immobilized trying to figure it out and unable to move ahead.

Agreed. Seems like these days if you can afford the AT setup then you automatically know how to use it..? Spot is blown for sure, used to have many days there alone when everyone was over on Bundys or Golden Gate. All good things end, at least on weekends. I feel like people would rather stand in a group waiting for the ambitious guy to pick a line and a establish a track then to actually make their own. Its easier that way. Lets go skiing soon Scotsman, we probably have a lot to complain about together.....at least conditions this year are not one of them. Sometimes you just have to vent you know?

we recently took up bc skiing for the solitude but are sadly discovering that you really have to search for it these days

Whats the easiest way from point A to point B? Your line obviously, Why the hell would anyone take any different if you are going to do the hard work?

There will always be postholing idiots with tall-t's, fire lenses and only gear is a shovel and they are going to continually become more common.

Time to figure out somewhere new.

I like Mazama Ridge area as much as the next guy ~ which is, of course, part of the problem, but some would argue that it isn't bc ~ it simply isn't inbounds..

can't recall seeing a 'front country' TR in recent times.  not even sure what that is.. Loved Susan's and Savegondors urban bc TRs and also David Lowry's orchard tour.

There are endless rewards to be found ~ some near the car or the porch ~ some are crowded, some are not.  dg


author=airpoppoff link=topic=18210.msg76924#msg76924 date=1291074421]
Whats the easiest way from point A to point B? Your line obviously, Why the hell would anyone take any different if you are going to do the hard work?


I guess my thoughts( which admittedly I do not always follow as I am an admitted hypocrite) is that its' OK to use another person's skin track out to a certain area but in doing so you should have the decency to extend the skin track past where they decided to ski and ski another slope. To follow their skin track and then ski the same slope is IMHO not correct etiquette.
If that means you have to ski someplace other than where you intended, so be it, they got there first and did the hard work to get there first.

author=Scotsman link=topic=18210.msg76934#msg76934 date=1291077951]
I guess my thoughts( which admittedly I do not always follow as I am an admitted hypocrite) is that its' OK to use another person's skin track out to a certain area but in doing so you should have the decency to extend the skin track past where they decided to ski and ski another slope. To follow their skin track and then ski the same slope is IMHO not correct etiquette.
If that means you have to ski someplace other than where you intended, so be it, they got there first and did the hard work to get there first.


let's make it a rule..

author=Scotsman link=topic=18210.msg76903#msg76903 date=1291066494">
New name for Mazama Bowl= The sheep pen or the Lemming lair.
Powder preservation with TAYers=OXYMORON.
How many TAYers does it take to F**K up a powder slope=ONE.
How do you trap a TAYer?. Put in a skin track and then backtrack in the same track, they will follow until it ends and then be immobilized trying to figure it out and unable to move ahead.

::)
Troll definition (bolding is mine):
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1"> or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[


It appears that we all need to get used to the fact that there are more folks enjoying the sport, though I recall Mazama being pretty darned crowded even 15 years ago - it never seemed to be the place to find unspoiled lines on weekends or holidaze. I've actually not been back much since due to there being other much less crowded, closer-to-home spots.

That rule is intriguing, but I can think of many tours where it would be impractical, and besides, it seems kind of silly to expect people to respect this sort of "first come gets all" protocol. I have certainly never expected it of others, and don't think I'd observe it either. I will say that if I show up nice and relaxed, having followed your skin track and arrive just as you stop at the top, I'm not going to try to jump ahead of you to get the first run in. However, I do hope that more people, whether they be TAYers or not, would learn to farm the powder a bit more efficiently.

author=Jim Oker link=topic=18210.msg76940#msg76940 date=1291079226">
::)
Troll definition (bolding is mine):

Captain Obvious to the rescue.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=captain%20obvious
quote:A phrase quite obviously inspired by John Madden. Contrary to popular belief, Captain Obvious is capable of flying but is afraid to, so he drives around the country in an RV, constantly on the lookout for blatantly obvious things to explain to the general public.End Quote.

Sure, I'm OK with stating the obvious when it calls out bullying or trolling. Maybe that makes me lame or something, and I'm OK with that.

author=Jim Oker link=topic=18210.msg76945#msg76945 date=1291080042]
Sure, I'm OK with stating the obvious when it calls out bullying or trolling. Maybe that makes me lame or something, and I'm OK with that.

Sometimes trolling or presenting another view promotes discussion but you passive /aggressive types wouldn't understand.
Don't honk your horn Jim! That's the Seattle way.

I don't live in Seattle. I don't understand the horn comment, but I use my car horn when it will help with safety as well as every now and then to let some a-hole know they pulled a f-d up manouver, fwiw. I do wish more people around here would use turn signals...

There are many ways to promote fine discussion. Some of them even avoid being rude to an entire community yet can get at least as useful a discussion going! Try it sometime...

Now Jim, please tell me you haven't been lurking to catch me on the same page as Mr. Scotsman - again.    ;D  You should know that I don't carry his water, nor he, mine..  Nevertheless, your point is duly noted.  My reference was a bit tongue-in-cheek (with Seinfeld in mind), yet it remains true that etiquette is sometimes hard to find.  I see the matter not so much as farming snow, but as yielding space.  I prefer to cut my own uptrack, but I'll use another if it results in a cleaner slope for the rest.  If I don't mind company, I'll go where the people are, and ski it with everyone's best experience in mind.

But I, like you, i guess, prefer to see only my own breath carried away on the breeze.  Would that space and time, allow it, till the end.      dg

author=kath link=topic=18210.msg76910#msg76910 date=1291070458]
we recently took up bc skiing for the solitude but are sadly discovering that you really have to search for it these days


Seems like the Cascades are pretty big.  If Paradise is getting skied out, there are a ton of other spots to get solo turns...you might just have to get a bit craftier (and then be evasive/vague about posting the actual location on TAY when you put up the great photos:).

Love this thread.

Being such a good person, during a recent morning at Paradise I was kind enough to send an entire flock of new BC skiers up high for the nice, long clean lines of the Muir Snowfield. As I explained to them, you can simply look at the shoulder leading up to the snowfield and *see* all the snow with your naked eye. Don't ski away from good snow in the pursuit of better, right??

I mean, it seems obvious enough right? It's called the Muir Snowfield because that's where the most snow accumulates, and naturally that's where you find the best stuff. Especially since the Nisqually Gorge and the enormous bulk of Mt Rainier protects the high elevation snow from the wind.

author=Scotsman link=topic=18210.msg76934#msg76934 date=1291077951]
I guess my thoughts( which admittedly I do not always follow as I am an admitted hypocrite) is that its' OK to use another person's skin track out to a certain area but in doing so you should have the decency to extend the skin track past where they decided to ski and ski another slope. To follow their skin track and then ski the same slope is IMHO not correct etiquette.
If that means you have to ski someplace other than where you intended, so be it, they got there first and did the hard work to get there first.


I agree completely with that, but we all know that you get tire kickers that want you to do all the hard work, then hang out with you at the top. I try to as much as possible to politely say "your not skiing here are you?" and if they say yes I just keep going.

You can make it a "rule" but the uneducated or less caring people will always be out there.

author=Jim Oker link=topic=18210.msg76948#msg76948 date=1291080409]
I don't live in Seattle. I don't understand the horn comment, but I use my car horn when it will help with safety as well as every now and then to let some a-hole know they pulled a f-d up manouver, fwiw. I do wish more people around here would use turn signals...

There are many ways to promote fine discussion. Some of them even avoid being rude to an entire community yet can get at least as useful a discussion going! Try it sometime...


Did the Captain Obvious comment hurt your finely tuned feelings Jim.... boo hoo. Cry me a river!
The TAY community deserves some straight talk once in a while and I'm part of the TAY community like it or not.
As an entry point to the BC for many and most BC skiers in Washington it does a fine job of giving people good advice, getting started, getting cheap gear, finding partners and mentors, finding places where to go and skiing and avy conditions.  The downside is that it also promotes the herd instinct due to it's TR's, enables the ill-trained and those that are not willing to endure the long apprenticeship to get to places they shouldn't be and frankly because of it's " must be positive all the F@@king time" attitude , does a real shitty job of teaching  BC etiquette because few are willing to incur the patronizing reproaches of people like you if they comment negatively and strongly against the extreme gaperism routinely exhibited by TAYers in the BC.
TAYers herd after a good TR is reported like sheep.
TAYers ski in large groups, there are frequent report of groups 8 plus.
TAYers  aren't generally good skiers and mess up good slopes very quickly.
TAYers frequently mass attack an area by following others skin tracks like the example above.
TAYers compared to other groups are usually the most ignorant of ski etiquette.
Many groups, posses , duos will frequently avoid an area because it's know to be infested with TAYers.
I feel for ALpymarr over the swarming of Mazama Bowl by people following his skin track but on the other hand he's  the one who posts frequent TR's about his trips out there and how good the conditions are. We all are guilty of that to some extent and therein lies the irony.

As to BC touring ski etiquette, that needs to be teached. Only the other day I was skiing and committed a breach of etiquette. I was told about it and was at first defensive and then upon further reflection realized that the person was correct. In the end I was grateful  for the warning and next time out I did not repeat the same mistake .
BC skiing is experiencing the growth that rock climbing did 20 years ago. That resulted in climbing circles to the development of a fairly well developed code of behavior and etiquette to deal with crowded crags and competition for routes and anchors.
Perhaps you TAYers should develop a code of behavior and etiquette for BC skiing for your community  and post it on your precious site so that you lessen your collective effect on the WHOLE ski community as frankly you TAYers are  messing up a lot of areas .

Lots of good comments and valid points. I will be the first to admit that I dont consider Mazama as a BC spot....you can see the car. However, i am broke and often solo. My options are quite limited in terms of financial ability (Crystal) and safety (real BC). I will also be the first to admit that i have been BC skiing not that long, however as a fledgling tourer I was taught the basic BC ethics. May main gripe with my "tour" is not just the poaching but as Scotsman well put it, mass gaperism. If you fall ten times skiing a mellow 300 foot slope then you should probably hone your skills a bit to: a) have more fun, b) dont hurt yourself or others, c) learn how to ski pow so the next time you go it will be great and finally, d) preserve the turns for the crowds that show up at these spots. There are many other areas where crowds gather to harvest some pow, but with proper ethics everyone can be happy and ski lines all day without crossing another track. As far as others using the same track, again scotsman has a good point. Have a little respect and go another 100 yards. I dunno maybe thats asking too much. As far as the snowshoes and postholers: still BS. At least in Washington Trails winter issue they tell them to respect skiers and skinners and make their own tracks. Too bad that wont happen, again, its too easy to just follow my track. Help me out of Mazama, lets go BC, i am always looking to go out.

Love to get out with you Alpymarr. I fondly remember that day at at Chair Peak Basin.
Lets get out soon. ;D

I'm not looking to respond to any specific comments here, and encourage the group to start a  thread under random tracks to discuss etiquette further since I think this is an important discussion. However, I'd like to suggest we start the etiquette discussion regarding the more important matter of safety rather than pow preservation and poaching. I know, I know...how gaper. However, I've said it before and will again "Gladly, take the first tracks...I'll just slay the steeper line you can't..."

Let's try a civil discussion out of the TR realm...

author=alpymarr link=topic=18210.msg76982#msg76982 date=1291094543]

I dunno maybe thats asking too much. As far as the snowshoes and postholers: still BS. At least in Washington Trails winter issue they tell them to respect skiers and skinners and make their own tracks. Too bad that wont happen, again, its too easy to just follow my track. Help me out of Mazama, lets go BC, i am always looking to go out.


Took a group of novice bc folks on a boot pack up to Alta Vista area Sunday. Laid a boot pack for many skiers on AT gear with just my boots- no snowshoes. Except my follower was Ron J who was a super rad guy. When you drive to the only plowed road with access to good snow (when it's preseason at the ski area) and meet novices learning the craft- please be nice at least. No BS. Sometimes it sucks being the only person with a splitboard that you know not in Alaska. Trying to generate some interest here!

And no! I didn't bootpack your skin track! The skiers followed one I made! ;)

author=lolob link=topic=18210.msg76959#msg76959 date=1291084662]
Seems like the Cascades are pretty big.


It wasn't long ago that when I'd hear about backcountry crowding in the Wasatch or someplace, I'd think, "Boy I'm sure glad we don't have that here." But I think we're starting to get it.

It's true that the Cascades are big but the real question is how much acreage can typical skiers access in a day from a plowed road. Those are going to be the heavily used spots. I wonder how the Cascades and other crowded areas compare under that metric.

That said, I don't worry too much about what other people do in the backcountry. I figure that everybody's got equal rights to it as long as they don't endanger others or damage the place. Beyond that, there are no rules, just recommendations. We were all newbies once.

I agree, Lowell. I've been briefly irritated in the past by things like slowshoers trashing my traversing uptrack, but I remind myself that it's public land, they're probably clueless about how they're impacting my group, I'm still having a pretty decent day, and there are other spots I could likely have gone on those days where I'd not have had any "user conflict."

Scotsman - you have some interesting points about etiquette (and the likely impacts of this web site's raising of mass awareness of commonly used spots) somewhere in there (along with gross generalizations about TAYers - many of us of course ski in small groups despite there also being the large TAY groups that you aptly describe; I wonder how you've managed to so broadly observe and compare TAYers in general to other skiers in general...). I question how effective you'll be in raising anyone's awareness with your overtly hostile posts and overgeneralizations (and am amused by the glaring irony of posting about skiing etiquette in such a nasty fashion), but perhaps I'm the one with my head up my butt, not you. Perhaps going out of your way to insult others is actually the best way to get others to understand your thoughts. Carry on if you truly believe that your tone is going to open minds. And no, don't worry, you didn't hurt my feelings. I learned in grade school not to let bullies get to me with their standard cheap shots (it probably won't surprise you to learn that I was bullied a bit back in elementary school, where I was the youngest/littlest in my grade). I also learned that if no one speaks up, they keep on bullying (and yes, I realize based every past example where I've seen your approach questioned that you will bully the questioner, so I posted knowing full well I'd be the object of your next insults...).

On the other hand... perhaps you could take a constructive crack at a first draft of a code of etiquette on Random Tracks! It might even be more useful than the "best little ski areas" thread...

I agree with you and Alpymarr that in a spot like Mazama, folks should ideally consider moving a little further along the wide ridge after following a skin track, but of course in a spot like Mazama you are certain to encounter newbies who are a bit freaked about hazards and more likely to do more monkey-see-monkey-do behavior and thus may not want to go forge their own path (not that following another party is going to guarantee anything - this is not the domain of purely rational thought). I also agree that in a spot like Mazama, it would be nice if folks would try a bit harder to farm lines out of courtesy to other skiers. But again, you are in a spot that attracts newbies who aren't necessarily able to make the consistent turns that are necessary for efficient powder farming.

Alpymarr - happy to get out with you sometime if you're looking for new folks and potentially new horizons.

Waitaminute...crowded, overtracked and obnoxiously touristy up at Paradise!? Nahh, ya don't say! *rolleyes* What do you expect? The Paradise environs hardly even count as backcountry; after all, a road gets plowed up over 5,000 feet. If the book "Ski Touring for Dummies" was written, the first chapter would include a map to Paradise. It's the third stop for a great number of BC noobs, right after the gear shop to buy their setup and Starbucks for a latte.

Don't get me wrong, I end up there every so often myself (generally due to laziness or ride sharing, or conditions being crap everywhere else), but I am certainly not expecting solitude when I go. Grumbling about lack of etiquette or solitude at Paradise seems akin to whining about too many kids at disneyland, I-5 being crowded in Seattle at 5pm on a Friday afternoon or the Mariners losing.


I'm not trying to open any minds Jim, I wouldn't be so presumptuous. Just ranting as usual and bemoaning the fact that many areas  I used to enjoy are overrun with herding TAYers. Selfish I know, but at least I do something about it and find other areas to go or choose times when I know they won't be there.

If it's any consultation to you, my twin and I were severely bullied at school as well but for different reasons. My father used to report the poachers on the salmon river that ran through the village to the water bailiff to try and protect the salmon runs. Their sons used to try and beat us up in revenge .  It was like fight club EVERY day!  I actually enjoyed it eventually and looked forward to the coming fight no matter the outcome. But you already knew that.  ;)


About 25+ years ago, over the Thanksgiving holiday, my parents were here visiting from Ohio.

There was  terrific snowfall that year. I outfitted my parents with old Trak cross country skis and took them to Paradise.

They had never been on skis before in their life. Total "gappers." It was a beautiful day and we toured all over the place.

Now they are very old. Just the other day, my father reminded me of the only time that he was on skis and about the amazing day at Paradise. It is obviously one of his favorite memories. And mine.

The wilderness and mountains, and their glad tidings, as pointed out by that great Scotsman, John Muir, are there for everyone who wishes to partake.

Hilarious thread LOL  Before TAYERs there were, and still are, Mountaineer groups from NW at all accessible bc areas; they fit Scotsman's stereotype well, almost always in large groups; and I'll bet lots of TAYers started, or still are, Mountaineers.  Sure Paradise is getting more crowded (I've seen it in my 20+ years skiing there)--the population of WWA has gone up markedly and newer AT gear and snowshoes make the bc more accessible to massively more people than the old XC , Tele, and AT gear.  Paradise would be a LOT more crowded if the Mount Tahoma Ski Trail area had not been developed going on 20 yrs ago; many snowshoers and, especially XC skiers go there.  It is getting very difficult to XC ski around Paradise with all the snowshoers and postholers.

I agree that the slopes just above Paradise Valley Road are not really bc (I made a comment on Pierce's post above that) but the rest of the area from the Tatoosh, to Van Trump Park, Nisqually Glacier, Muir Snowfield, Edith Basin, the back bowl so disparaged by Scotsman, Mazama Ridge down to Reflection Lakes are some of the best bc that can be gained in a reasonable winter day in WWA.  I skied there yesterday and saw 1 other skier a ridge away and the tracks of another skier (that split off well before I stopped climbing).


And I have had to break trail in fresh snow more times than I could count on an  Excel spreadsheet :-); I (I ski over 50% of the time by myself, 45% with just my wife), and my wife and I, have marveled how great it was to have the backcountry all to myself (ourselves) on such beautiful days with such great snow and such spectacular scenery.  I hope more and more people start to feel it is unworthy of being called backcountry and go back to the lift-served areas they love so much LOL

Oh, and I like when skiers use the same uptrack, even if I broke trail; I agree if would be good etiquette to continue on breaking new trail if one followed a new up track, but when the object is the much vilified here back bowl (where everyone seems to go) what can you expect?  I pack up and leave if more than one other person shows up (unless they are the 2-3 friends I have).  I just wish snowshoers would use the same up track.  I rarely ski up out of the Paradise Parking Lot to Panorama Point on a weekend or when the snow is old because I can't stand the feeling of being in a cattle feed lot.  The effect is compounded by all those who need to create their slight variations on the way up. 

Wishing you all good skiing, especially front-country and side-country and giving this free advice: Don't go to Paradise or the Tatoosh, both are severely overcrowded, the snow sucks, and the scenery is terrible and if you ask those who heli-ski, it is not even backcountry at all!  ;) ::)

author=cornRIDE link=topic=18210.msg76990#msg76990 date=1291096020]
Took a group of novice bc folks on a boot pack up to Alta Vista area Sunday. Laid a boot pack for many skiers on AT gear with just my boots- no snowshoes. Except my follower was Ron J who was a super rad guy. When you drive to the only plowed road with access to good snow (when it's preseason at the ski area) and meet novices learning the craft- please be nice at least. No BS. Sometimes it sucks being the only person with a splitboard that you know not in Alaska. Trying to generate some interest here!
And no! I didn't bootpack your skin track! The skiers followed one I made! ;)


Guilty as charged.
I found it ironic and quite enjoyable to have "out-fumbled" a group of 4 or 5 snowboarders (one of them post holing) only to discover their uptrack heading to the very ridge that the MadDog and I had our sights on, in snow requiring knee deep trailbreaking. So as long as their up track was heading in the general direction we were going, we found it quite handy, albeit knowing that we may need to relinquish first tracks and/or first dibs on lines at the top.
When we caught them seemingly transitioning at the top we thanked them for breaking trail and moved along the ridge a bit more to give them some room, assuming that we'd have to share the virgin, untracked slope with them.
We pulled skins and had a snack while waiting for them to go first and “claim a line”. Then, still not seeing any tracks, spooned in two sets of tracks for our first run down. We looked up to see what line the boarders were going to claim to discover that they had built a great kicker and were doing hucks off it. They were just climbing back up from their landing spot obviously having decided to focus on the hucks and not bother riding down and subjecting themselves to the longer climb cycles. So we just continued our runs spooning tracks across the slope.
About the time to head down the snowboarders joined us at the top where we were doing our transitions and CornRIDE introduced himself and asked if we knew a clean line back to the parking lot. We did and they followed us down.
Interestingly, CornRIDE and his group and one other young couple on snowshoes (who avoided the good ski lines – Thank You for that), were the only folks we saw all day outside the parking lot.
Thanks, again, for the uptrack, CornRIDE. I’m glad you and your friends had a good time; and Awesome Jumps! :)



I can't believe you guys actually encounter other skiers when touring, I think it's happened once to me and that was near Steven's Pass.

author=aaron_wright link=topic=18210.msg77023#msg77023 date=1291136781]
I can't believe you guys actually encounter other skiers when touring, I think it's happened once to me and that was near Steven's Pass.
No Joke! I'm moving to Alaska, WA is way too crowded!

I have learned to accept that I will see people when touring (anywhere) in Cascades.  And when I want to find a new place to ride I just start looking at TAY to see where all the good spots are...  I wonder how all those other people out there learn about where to pile up at the trailhead?

author=ron j link=topic=18210.msg77020#msg77020 date=1291135146]
Guilty as charged.
I found it ironic and quite enjoyable to have "out-fumbled" a group of 4 or 5 snowboarders (one of them post holing) only to discover their uptrack heading to the very ridge that the MadDog and I had our sights on, in snow requiring knee deep trailbreaking. So as long as their up track was heading in the general direction we were going, we found it quite handy, albeit knowing that we may need to relinquish first tracks and/or first dibs on lines at the top.
When we caught them seemingly transitioning at the top we thanked them for breaking trail and moved along the ridge a bit more to give them some room, assuming that we'd have to share the virgin, untracked slope with them.
We pulled skins and had a snack while waiting for them to go first and “claim a line”. Then, still not seeing any tracks, spooned in two sets of tracks for our first run down. We looked up to see what line the boarders were going to claim to discover that they had built a great kicker and were doing hucks off it. They were just climbing back up from their landing spot obviously having decided to focus on the hucks and not bother riding down and subjecting themselves to the longer climb cycles. So we just continued our runs spooning tracks across the slope.
About the time to head down the snowboarders joined us at the top where we were doing our transitions and CornRIDE introduced himself and asked if we knew a clean line back to the parking lot. We did and they followed us down.
Interestingly, CornRIDE and his group and one other young couple on snowshoes (who avoided the good ski lines – Thank You for that), were the only folks we saw all day outside the parking lot.
Thanks, again, for the uptrack, CornRIDE. I’m glad you and your friends had a good time; and Awesome Jumps! :)





good to meet you Ron. Thanks for sharing the slope so kindly with us. your courtesy and attitude stand out to me after hearing some of these 'i'm so hardcore and i can't believe you don't know shit' opinions about "wilderness experiences" at tourist city USA.

I might be a bit more hesitant to introduce myself to the people I meet up there this year.



there was plenty of pow to bomb out a slope with landings and spoon some lines with kind strangers! ;)


author=kath link=topic=18210.msg76910#msg76910 date=1291070458]
we recently took up bc skiing for the solitude but are sadly discovering that you really have to search for it these days


The number of BC skiers will continue to grow and the only solution is access to new terrain. Otherwise it will be crowded along the few ploughed roads.

author=Alexander link=topic=18210.msg77068#msg77068 date=1291156941]
The number of BC skiers will continue to grow and the only solution is access to new terrain. Otherwise it will be crowded along the few ploughed roads.


And the current tendency is to not plow roads, even close roads altogether, eliminate snow parks, etc. as the economy remains sluggish, costs rise, and revenues fall.  It will be very interesting to see what happens to snow park plowing in this heavy snow winter.

author=acarey link=topic=18210.msg77074#msg77074 date=1291159302]
And the current tendency is to


you forgot the expand National Park and wilderness areas, restrict motorized access......

Don't go to the mall on Black Friday and then complain that someone was buying "your" stuff.

Darn, Josh beat me to the sarcasm.

If you want close to the car, there wil be booters, copycats, poachers, etc...  I agree with Lowell, accept reality and find somewhere that will satisfy your needs.  I was at Hyak Friday and ran into a large group (maybe TAY'ers?)  Some were better skiiers than others but all were pleasant and we all enjoyed sharing the hill.  A group of two included one skiier who farmed craters.  Who cares, I'm able to go around them.  We are all still newbies at something.

I appreciate TAY's inclusive, non-aggressive feeling.  If herd mentality helps people get out and enjoy life, I'm OK with it.  When it encourages dangerous behavior, I am impressed that experienced TAY'ers have the generosity to calmly and repeatedly offer guidance.

I have to note while reading I found myself thinking: "This sounds like a CC.com thread..."  ;D

That being said, good points made by all.

Ive been following this thread not needing to say anything in a hurry.
Just kinda savoring the fact that I was one of Alpymarr's "Cool and Mellow guys"
We had thanked him for resetting and adding to a track that had been on going since last weekend. I'll say this we were frankly impressed with his skill/atheleticism and stayed short of his prine runs a little south of us.
Now to set some straight the area under discussion was not the MAzama Back bowl It was west facing MAzama ridge midway between 4th crossing and Indian Cliff area.
On this particular day the gate didn't open till 11 and visibility above treeline was iffy. Hence a lot skiers of all levels were seeking quick powder in a smaller area.Our preference given more time would have been to actually go to Mazama back bowl or beyond.
Alpymarr made a wise choice to use parts of a previous track and rip off 9 runs in high style. Us Geezers got in 6 and then headed  back home. No guilt on our part as we and others had set the track the week before.
A lot has been said here about "finding ones own snow".
but how far does this go?  Should I a make a separate track up into the tatoosh when one exists ?
Even with rising numbers of backcountry skiers  given longer days and good visibility and more road access there is plenty of room. More Road access,earlier gate openings, are  something we ought to be fighting for instead of pointing fingers at each other.
Cayuse pass and white river rd used to be plowed all winter.
Frankly I see all these newer skiers as potential allies and treat them as such.





author=Robie link=topic=18210.msg77129#msg77129 date=1291185546]
Ive been following this thread not needing to say anything in a hurry.
Just kinda savoring the fact that I was one of Alpymarr's "Cool and Mellow guys"
We had thanked him for resetting and adding to a track that had been on going since last weekend. I'll say this we were frankly impressed with his skill/atheleticism and stayed short of his prine runs a little south of us.
Now to set some straight the area under discussion was not the MAzama Back bowl It was west facing MAzama ridge midway between 4th crossing and Indian Cliff area.
On this particular day the gate didn't open till 11 and visibility above treeline was iffy. Hence a lot skiers of all levels were seeking quick powder in a smaller area.Our preference given more time would have been to actually go to Mazama back bowl or beyond.
Alpymarr made a wise choice to use parts of a previous track and rip off 9 runs in high style. Us Geezers got in 6 and then headed  back home. No guilt on our part as we and others had set the track the week before.
A lot has been said here about "finding ones own snow".
but how far does this go?  Should I a make a separate track up into the tatoosh when one exists ?
Even with rising numbers of backcountry skiers  given longer days and good visibility and more road access there is plenty of room. More Road access,earlier gate openings, are  something we ought to be fighting for instead of pointing fingers at each other.
Cayuse pass and white river rd used to be plowed all winter.
Frankly I see all these newer skiers as potential allies and treat them as such.







cool & mellow, Robie :-)

Nice to meet you Robie! Good points. These gentlemen were kind enough to actually interact with me..we need more of this in crowded areas. Just simply communicating makes things so much easier, and you may even make friends. Its just the whole barrage of huge groups who wont give you the time of day that swoop in from above with their ten guys, make huge GS turns, spot your track and then use it to kill the place in 5 minutes. No hello, nothing. Thats what happened and thats why I brought it up. Common courtesy is all I ask. If more people would behave like Robies group the "front country" spots would be made so much more enjoyable.

author=JoshK link=topic=18210.msg77004#msg77004 date=1291102526]
Waitaminute...crowded, overtracked and obnoxiously touristy up at Paradise!? Nahh, ya don't say! *rolleyes* What do you expect? The Paradise environs hardly even count as backcountry; after all, a road gets plowed up over 5,000 feet. If the book "Ski Touring for Dummies" was written, the first chapter would include a map to Paradise. It's the third stop for a great number of BC noobs, right after the gear shop to buy their setup and Starbucks for a latte.

Don't get me wrong, I end up there every so often myself (generally due to laziness or ride sharing, or conditions being crap everywhere else), but I am certainly not expecting solitude when I go. Grumbling about lack of etiquette or solitude at Paradise seems akin to whining about too many kids at disneyland, I-5 being crowded in Seattle at 5pm on a Friday afternoon or the Mariners losing.




I'm in with Josh here.  I don't especially like competing for lines but I also don't expect some set of 'rules' to be followed.  Paradise has great access and hence is going to get every type of person up there.

I also agree with the statement that there is a LOT OF LAND to be skied in WA.  Hell even most of the area's outside of Mazama go untouched.

i.e.

Van Trump
Van Trump to Nisqually has some sick lines
Some harder lines around Nisqually chute don't get hit.  
Lines in the Cowlitz area

Hell even the backside of Mazama is sick and rarely gets hit.  The Stevens Creek area has all kinds of sick lines I've been eying but admittedly too lazy to hit.  

I've also been looking into a bunch of close stuff around Index and up on the Mountain Loop/ Darrington area.  closer than Paradise...why nobody go?

thanks to everyone who has contributed to the furtherance of backcountry philosophy and etiquette, in this thread and elsewhere, especially to those who have made themselves vulnerable. this is for no one in particular and everyone in general.

do we earn turns to escape from humanity, or to be more in touch with what it really means to be human? [roll your eyes here] wherever we ski, board, shoe, hike, we should be treating each other and the environment with respect. that is not too much to ask. perhaps alpymarr is guilty of expecting too much from his fellow snow junkies? should we ask that he be more cynical of his fellows and expect them to be d-bags? i'm actually not being rhetorical... i think its a legitimate question to grapple with as we make kick steps or make kick-turns. however, lashing out at each other , however kindly ("a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand"), for expecting, hoping, for the best in people seems counterproductive to me. we do need more quality communication; we do need to treat ourselves and each other better. perhaps we should temper our expectations, not let the "herds" disgust us, help educate each other and be open to education. just as in other situations where people interact with each other, on the trail, on the road, on the water, there ARE rules or etiquettes to follow [here I disagree with Lowell]. these are meant to keep us safe from the environment and from each other, whether from triggered avy's, collisions, or fists. i think we kid ourselves if we believe that we can exist in a libertarian powtopia with other people. after all, we have a code of ethics on TAY, and public lands do have rules and regulations, and perhaps we should create and promulgate a code of ethics for the backcountry (or maybe there is one and my ignorance shines!). i do not think it is unreasonable to be irritated when a mob uses my skin track and doesn't say word one - no thank you, no howdy, no gooday... i think we should politely tell people when they aren't being polite, and i think we should be using our horns more on the roads! as scotsman indicated, how are we supposed to know if WE are being the d-bag if no one tells us?

peace, love, unity, respect, and apologies for the f'ing essay. and for not using any emoticons. my bad. lastly, i'd like to thank Lagunita's Brown Shugga for making this possible.
[full disclosure: alpymarr is a personal friend and powcomplice]

The irony of complaining about overcrowding at a particular spot while writing a trip report about this spot is almost too much to bear. Stop going to paradise if you dont like seeing people. Dont complain about people if you are forced to go to paradise because you always ski alone. It only makes you look like an asshole if you are the guy up at paradise giving everyone else shit for not knowing the "rules".

As for following skin tracks, how can you complain about powder not being effecitvely shredded and then expect everyone to make their own track? If anyone would like to use my skin track at any time feel free. I dont care, and I dont know why people make such a big deal about this. I am happy to facilitate easier shredding for others. If you're going to get all protective of your skin track, go somewhere futher out where you can be sure no one will be taking advantage of your oh so hard work. Boo Hoo. As for snowshoes on the skin track, get over it. Consider the messed up skin track more practice and fitness for you. If you are skinning in an area where snowshoers/bootpackers are, then you are skinning in an area that is popular. Expect it, as you arent really getting after it in the backcountry if you are seeing bootpackers and snowshoers. I suggest you find some new, and undoubtedly better terrain. You wont find any snowshoers or bootpackers off the backside of Rock Mtn.


Finally, if you Tayers want to get better at slaying the pow, get out of the backcountry and into the resort. No one ever became a good skier by ski touring. If they did it probably took at least 5 times as long.





author=Splitboard Graham link=topic=18210.msg77230#msg77230 date=1291272814]
...
peace, love, unity, respect, and apologies for the f'ing essay. and for not using any emoticons. my bad. lastly, i'd like to thank Lagunita's Brown Shugga for making this possible.
[full disclosure: alpymarr is a personal friend and powcomplice]


we be stylin now 'mon.. 8)

this is almost as good as east coast/west coast beef! [and easily as banal]

@ellingferd [and other "trolls" and haters of civility]: perhaps the real irony is that an off-hand complaint about rudeness in the mountains garners rudeness on the webs...  ;D

This whole thing has been blown way out of proportion, after re-reading alpymarr's first post.  That is, of course, the way of the internet.  Busy places like Paradise will always have lots of folks, many of whom will not know what they should or should not do with a set skin track, especially since half of it is the opinion of the individual skier.

The other concept, that there exists a set of "TAYers" who are uniform and consistent in their approach (and apparent disregard and lack of skill) to the mountains, is similarly ridiculous.  A widely cast net intended to catch as many fish as possible.  It may not be the textbook definition of trolling, but it seems to fit.

FWIW, Doug and I saw NOBODY during our tour in the Paradise area yesterday.

author=ron j link=topic=18210.msg77553#msg77553 date=1291660420]
FWIW, Doug and I saw NOBODY during our tour in the Paradise area yesterday.


GASP!


;)


Reply to this TR

7978
november-28-paradise
alpymarr
2010-11-29 13:07:11