11-2010 Alpental Chair 2 - National Monument or ?

For the people,
I propose that we discuss and reach some kind of consensus on what to do with Chair-2 at the Alpental Ski Area, right here in this forum, and then make a plan to create dialogue with CNL Real Estate (concern), The USDA-FS and the people, with some kind of very definite recommendation, and then take action.
I feel that we have to start NOW, long before they make a (legal) plan to replace our beloved chair-2 which as you can tell by now, I am not in favor of (replacing) for many reasons, but I am very open to your opinions and comments, thus, this forum.
I hope this forum can create a base knowledge and general direction on how to care for this classic Northwest Chair-lift.
As of today 11-3-2010, I will suggest that we declare/nominate Chair-2 at Alpental, a NATIONAL MONUMENT which would keep CNL (Properties) from EVER replacing it and it would by law, MAKE THEM HAVE to take care of it for future generations!
The only way to have any influence about this is to be years ahead of the decision making process concerning OUR very important NW ski history and infrastructure that we have entrusted to these...corporations through the USDA-Forest Service. My observation is that the track record of these well meaning agency's is poor and so we must make sure as good citizen's, that we help oversee these important choices we make about sensitive public lands.
ALSO the people who never ski, may not understand how WE feel and this forum could actually have major influence on the Chair-2 question and at the least, be a decent resource to educate people on this issue.
Alpental and other ski area's are OUR PUBLIC LANDS and I recommend we take responsibility for these issue's before we are (further) stripped of our culture and birth-right.
OF course, any actual change has (only) to do with the RULE OF LAW which hopefully is the basis but not limited to, this forum.
I believe conserving our precious ski culture certainly includes such choice items like Chair-2 at Alpental, named, The Edelwiess Chair, also known as Chair 17 at Alpental.

Take sort of a ride on Chair-2 at Alpental here:
www.youtube.com/user/Schluct#p/u/5/QBX-xKCc58U

Alpine Lakes Wilderness Area document:
www.freealpental.org/94-357.pdf

Alpental History


PDF version of the MDP for the Summit At Snoqualmie:
www.fs.fed.us/r6/mbs/projects/summit-at-...RecordOfDecision.pdf

FEIS for The-Summit-At-Snoqualmie:
www.fs.fed.us/r6/mbs/projects/summit-at-snoqualmie/

Related thread on TAY:
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...ex.php?topic=14650.0

Here is a nice slideshow of the Alpental back-country and Chair-2 purely for entertainment only.
Courtesy of the Alpental Secret Society:
www.youtube.com/user/Schluct#p/u/8/kk1LdhObwLk

"Until we lose ourselves there is no hope of finding ourselves."
Henry Miller


What do YOU think?
BillyTheMountain

I would like to preserve the chair #2 as well and make a swing out of it. But I will not use that duckbill cable ejection device they use to mount it.

I'm all for leaving the runs the way they are but chairs, think Hyak for a minute.........are chairs suppose to go backwards? Request a chair with similar capacity. I believe/heard 5th person(or will soon be set straight by someone) that CH6 at Crystal will be replaced with a triple of similar capacity as the double to get heavier chairs so they hit towers less and fall off less. I would be stoked if they did because that chair is always the first down if the winds come up.

BTW chair 2 should be a quad as that line sucks.

BTW chair 2 should be a quad as that line sucks.

As much as I hate fighting the large lines on 2, I disagree. A quad would move the crowd to the top where there just isn't room for that many more people. Simliar to what occurred when chair one was replaced with the HSQ- lines on 1 were atrocious but kept the line on 2 manageable.

None of the 5 versions of the summit master plan I saw, including the one that was approved, included updating chair 2 with anything other than another double.

Not my home hill and I don't understand all the issues as a result.
However the replacement of the famous single chair ( by a new SINGLE chair) at Mad River Glen seems to have some parallels to this discussion.
As I understand it, the said chair was so iconic that despite the obvious capacity problems they decided to replace it with a more modern single chair that was actually MORE expensive than putting in a double as it had to be manufactured custom..... there not being a huge demand for new SINGLE chairs.
They then sold the old chairs and raised $270,000 to help pay the new chairs $1.5 million cost.

Alpental is an iconic ski area.
SAFETY should be the primary decision regarding Chair 2 replacement.
After that the decision is either to retain Alpental's iconic status or expand capacity( better service but "character "is lost)
Lot of info on the webz regarding Mad River Glen Single Chair and here's a snippet.
www.usatoday.com/travel/destinations/ski...iver-glen-lift_N.htm

Extend it to the SW corner of lot 4 so I can drink more while waiting in the line.

Without reworking and making better exit area around the unloading area I would think that feasibility of anything more than a 2 pack would be unreasonable.
I agree with Matt that a hi-speed 4 pack would be sweet, but it may turn into to much of a cluster at the top.

My thought and vote would go to...
IMO preserving a 2 pack chair just for old time sake is a little antiquated thinking. Especially with inevitable growth. I think they should put 8pac gangalas from the base to the top going right over the shot cliffs. Terminating at a small lodge. With a snack shack, sundeck at the top and BBQ/beer in the Spring. Now that would be impressive. Use it for summer tourists too. Also, it may help to get the avy work done a little sooner and maybe have less time for their private club skiing. They could stop the gondolas over the cliff and drop charges. OK maybe dreaming there. Would not have to worry about getting soaked riding through the showers at lower elevations. Take the lift towers off of two and make a ski hill that you can ski straight down instead of having to detour around tower 11 and Rollen.
Think progressive rather than regressive.
If money is going to be budgeted to the cause go all out.

.
IMO preserving a 2 pack chair just for old time sake is a little antiquated thinking. Especially with inevitable growth. I think they should put 8pac gangalas from the base to the top going right over the shot cliffs. Terminating at a small lodge. With a snack shack, sundeck at the top and BBQ/beer in the Spring.

Very European Joeda.! We could change the name to ALpengrave. I like it!

I love old crap, infact I love to drive with Lucas the Prince of darkness but not suspended in the air with no place to pull over.  BTW you think Alpental chair two cant handle the extra people think about a triple or quad on High Cambell.  That will be a interesting place on busy days, think ski patrol with cattle prods.... 

I think a double similar to Northway with heavy chairs would be a good fit at both mountains, better in the wind for the crazy people that think storm skiing is fun, not that I know any here. 

Thank you for your comments on this subject,

This is important information when considering the future of our proposed National Monument, Chair-2 at Alpental.

Comfortable Carrying Capacity (CCC)
The determination of an area's Slider Carrying Capacity (SCC) is perhaps the most critical step in ski area planning. Often referred to as the "Comfortable Carrying Capacity" or the "Sliders at One Time", this figure represents the number of sliders that the area's lift and ski trail system will provide a "perceived" quality experience for each slider ability level. Slider Carrying Capacity is determined via the integration of lift capacity, operating hours, acceptable slope densities, slope gradients, slider skill classifications and vertical feet of lift-serviced terrain.

MDP Summit At Snoqualmie
www.fs.fed.us/r6/mbs/projects/summit-at-...RecordOfDecision.pdf

Alpental's CCC is 1,880 the complete table is in TABLES ROD-#1 in the MDP.

(The CCC number dictates many things and regulates what can or cannot be done to ANY given ski area lift system.)

Snow always answers the what's and the why's. Schluctism

I love old crap, infact I love to drive with Lucas the Prince of darkness but not suspended in the air with no place to pull over.

nothing wrong with old, The only time it left me on the side of the road was from running out of gas.... prince of darkness and all....

I Know they hauled a new gear box up to chair 2. Hopefully that will make it a little faster loading. Alpental is small, as was said, the mountain capacity is the problem not just chair 2 serving the uppper mountain. I am not sure how much of the headache of chair 2 would be eliiminated by a tripple chair or more. The headache would just move to somewhere else on the mountain or it would attract more skiers and the headache would remain on the chair 2 lift line anyway.

nothing wrong with old, The only time it left me on the side of the road was from running out of gas.... prince of darkness and all....

I Know they hauled a new gear box up to chair 2. Hopefully that will make it a little faster loading. Alpental is small, as was said, the mountain capacity is the problem not just chair 2 serving the uppper mountain.

I KNOW who the prince of darkness is, and if he will just join me for a (ski) run through the ALPENTAL BACK-COUNTRY...I am SURE...he will quit his (terrible) evil ways. Schluct

Here is a picture of the (old) gearbox, the first of many surprises.
Notice the old FOREST GREEN PAINT (NW ferry boat green) on the gearbox! The very same color as the ICONIC Chair-2 at Alpental in question here in this forum. Gearbox picture taken approx. 7-2010.    This (color) type of detail is very important to our Comfortable Carrying Capacity (CCC)as well as our SPIRIT.
BTM

Snow can-can if anything can. Schluctism

Safety first. My kids will be on that thing in a few years and it provides important access for the patrol and maybe the DOT for all I know. I say replace it with a reliable double so I can minimize my irrational fear of a rollback on that chair...

Paint it ferry-boat green and make sure that there will be a beat up old boom box at the bottom tuned to KISW, KZOK or some other throw back radio station that brings the mood back to 1979. Its More than a Feelin.'

Oh, some one should show up with a case of PBR at least once a week and shower the crowd with refreshments just to keep the mood.

Alpengrave. Love that.

Safety first. My kids will be on that thing in a few years and it provides important access for the patrol and maybe the DOT for all I know. I say replace it with a reliable double so I can minimize my irrational fear of a rollback on that chair...

Maybe if we could start a rumor that Chair 2 can ROLLBACK.....the crowds will go away! But I doubt it.
Rollback, whatever that is, has never and cannot happen to Chair-2 at Alpental.
The lifts experts at Alpy have told me that the chair is in tip-top condition but I will interview (them) and get the skinny for you.
Of course ANY chairlift MUST be inspected every 365 days and MUST pass that inspection to operate. MOST of the hydraulic braking system has been replaced and I know the chair was re-wired and a communications wire was (finally) installed in 1992. All done by Bryan R.
Also, the reason they ran the chair all last year on slow and medium balance(the speed) was the old transmission box, the new transmission box WILL alleviate the slow chair.
There is NO DANGER, statistically, more folks have been injured in the bar from Helen's Helenators then on chair 2.


I don't mean to argue away your thoughts and comments, each person's comments are equally important. BUT....
replacing this historic, functional and iconic NW chairlift  because you live in a state of fear for your children is unacceptable.
People allow the lies and deceptions they are presented with, to cram them into a state of constant fear, I am very tired of it and I know that when folks wake up to this BS about how fear controls them, it will be very ugly.
Fear is something a skier MUST face, you know that and its an important part of chair 2. Chair 2 itself is quite a ride! Get ready to over-come your fears as chair 2 takes your squirming butt into a higher state of consciousness! The ride on Chair-2 is something you DON'T want your kids to miss, that's the whole point of preserving it for future generations.

Fear is the mind killer. Paul Maud-dib

Fear is the mind killer. Paul Maud-dib

He who controls the Spice, controls the universe! Baron Harkonnen:

I will remind everyone that the very first Chairlift in Washington State(you may have to correct me on that one) The Thunderbird Chairlift at the Summit-At-Snoqualmie, has been decommissioned and removed. The Thunderbird Lodge at the top is still there but is closed. This lodge has big time NW history as well as the lift.
The primary use for this area is now huge cellphone towers. I mean big, (grande) they are like monsters from hell pulsing the radiation and communications of all the evil piglets sitting at there identical desks.
Ok ok calm down Billy, let's just say that the old T-bird, looks like what COULD be the top of ANY MOUNTAIN.
Cellphone towers demand eminent domain so say for instance "they" wanted to put up giant celltowers at the top of Crystal, or worse, the top of Rainier, or wherever!  I feel that this "they are too big to fight" mentality is real and that this is just an interesting interrelated point about WHY I want to preserve by law, Chair-2 at Alpental.
The Thunderbird and the Celltower.
I am not shedding tears over the T-bird, and I am NOT AGAINST SKI AREA DEVELOPMENT, but the bright and shiny NEW celltowers are SO BIG and AMAZING that they deserve mentioning, especially in regards to the tops of mountains and public lands.
The towers eerily in the snowy snowy night look like giant mushrooms or crystals that have taken over what's left of a world that would allow this monster-structure electromagnetic dictator on our mountains.
This is a very deep and far reaching subject, the celltowers.

Here is proposal to put a tower on Rainier and in the NCNP.
See the celltower invasion here!
www.peer.org/campaigns/publiclands/towers/battles.php

Snow rules without ruling. Schluctism

Cell towers and eminent domain

Scotman,
Where the heck did you get that picture of me?
BTM
>

Rollback, whatever that is, has never and cannot happen to Chair-2 at Alpental.


I don't mean to argue away your thoughts and comments, each person's comments are equally important. BUT....
replacing this historic, functional and iconic NW chairlift  because you live in a state of fear for your children is unacceptable.
People allow the lies and deceptions they are presented with, to cram them into a state of constant fear, I am very tired of it and I know that when folks wake up to this BS about how fear controls them, it will be very ugly.
Fear is something a skier MUST face, you know that and its an important part of chair 2. Chair 2 itself is quite a ride! Get ready to over-come your fears as chair 2 takes your squirming butt into a higher state of consciousness! The ride on Chair-2 is something you DON'T want your kids to miss, that's the whole point of preserving it for future generations.

If you dont know what rollback is you cant comment and it can happen on any lift. While lifts do have several layers of redundancy its happend before. BTW whats up with all the extra cables holding up the towers, are those historical jury rigged cables?

I've got a deal for you, make the new one look like the old one, paint it with chipping paint, throw a few eccentric sheaves on and call it a day. Scrap the historic POS.

If you don't know what rollback is you cant comment and it can happen on any lift.  While lifts do have several layers of redundancy its happend before.  BTW whats up with all the extra cables holding up the towers, are those historical jury rigged cables?

I've got a deal for you, make the new one look like the old one, paint it with chipping paint, throw a few eccentric sheaves on and call it a day.  Scrap the historic POS.

In or around the early 70's, in the spring of that year 1972? TOWER TEN was seen to be vibrating excessively but the ski area decided to continue operating the chairlift as it did NOT appear to be a problem for operation!
Ok so as the snow melted away, and the base of tower ten was exposed, they saw that the entire tower had been ripped off the base and been swept to a position just below the actual base and was hanging by a shred of metal at the base.
The SNOW had ripped the tower off the base.
The fix was to put a custom made base on that tower with extra welding on the base. They also custom made a SNOW diversion device in the form of a 15 foot long very heavy steel folded piece of metal that deflects the snow sort of like a knife splitting the snow around the tower. This tower snow shield sits amazingly high on the tower. The snow right there funnels into a big steep mass and when it rains, and it always does at Alpental, the snow moves down-slope like a glacial serac and can cause a mis-alignment of the tower. So now they (have to) dig out the snow around and uphill of the tower if the snow gets to deep and heavy.
The cable at the top of tower ten runs from the top of the tower over to the cliff. Its for snowboarder fantasy's.
The cables on towers 6, 7 and 8 are vibration dampening and that one from tower 6 to tower 5 is just a bit bizarre. Of course that cable ties those towers together, I wonder if they need to borrow some duct tape?

Nevada means...snow-covered.

Seems a little sentimental and myopic for a self professed Schluctist Billy The Mountain.  

Chair two has elevated many.
It is dear to me.
Is is Schlucty to propose that this triumphant metallic incarnation of mans will to powder should be denied its rightful death?
Such have I not heard from word of Schluct.

Receive her while she is here.
Let her go when she goes.
The seasons will come again.

The mountain has it own boundless virtue - which is your virtue too.  Schluctism

Seems a little sentimental and myopic for a self professed Schluctist Billy The Mountain.  

Chair two has elevated many.
It is dear to me.
Is is Schlucty to propose that this triumphant metallic incarnation of mans will to powder should be denied its rightful death?
Such have I not heard from word of Schluct.

Receive her while she is here.
Let her go when she goes.
The seasons will come again.

The mountain has it own boundless virtue - which is your virtue too.  Schluctism

I don't know what you just said but I sure like the way you talk, er, baby!

We are evolving up, as we go down. Schluctism

Is is Schlucty to propose that this triumphant metallic incarnation of mans will to powder should be denied its rightful death?
Such have I not heard from word of Schluct.


The mountain has it own boundless virtue - which is your virtue too.  Schluctism

The Schluctism, alpinistically speaking, is a HIGHER form of Schluctology, (pre Tomas de Canon, Cantor for the high court of Schluct) alpenates the terms of Schluct.
Sincerely,
Schluct himself as Alpenised by the golden throne known as Chair 2?

I will bend like a reed in the wind. Paul Maud-dib

Seems a little sentimental and myopic for a self professed Schluctist Billy The Mountain.  

Chair two has elevated many.
It is dear to me.
Is is Schlucty to propose that this triumphant metallic incarnation of mans will to powder should be denied its rightful death?
Such have I not heard from word of Schluct.

Receive her while she is here.
Let her go when she goes.
The seasons will come again.

The mountain has it own boundless virtue - which is your virtue too.  Schluctism

This is a very beautiful and creative comment, the truth contained in the higher orders of Schluct is/are immutable, as you can plainly see.
But in translating your communication, I almost start to feel like you want me to let Chair 2 go and that, clinging to this stupid idea is SIMPLE and SENTIMENTAL.
Here is my answer and my answer is in all my comments buried in deep deep pow, it's in the details that make life interesting.
BTM

The purpose of women is to inspire love. H. Periot

it's in the details that make life interesting.
BTM

Rather, it is LIFE that makes the details interesting.

Life is punctuated by death; fullfilled upon death.

The reed may bend with the wind, but the winter will impose itself.

The Schluctism, alpinistically speaking, is a HIGHER form of Schluctology, (pre Tomas de Canon, Cantor for the high court of Schluct) alpenates the terms of Schluct.
Sincerely,
Schluct himself as Alpenised by the golden throne known as Chair 2?

(during my reign the golden throne was the cleaner pot @ shot 10)

Am I to read that, in alpinistic terms, YOU, Billy The Mountain are to be recognized as the sole incarnation of Schluct?
Have you always been Schluct?
Are you first generation Schluct or was your momma a Schluct?

The mountains continue to feed us from their empty bowl. Schluctism

I see Chair two not as a mechanical device but more of like a modern day human-tuning-fork.
As you ASCEND  from the hell down below and UP to the heaven above, you are forced to be transformed and "tuned up".
Each tower has specific symbolism and meaning, myth's etc. all a representation of YOUR ascention which is always changing.
Each ride on this magical chair takes you one time closer to yourself.

If you understood multiple higher dimensional Schuctology you would know what I mean.
BTM

Rather, it is LIFE that makes the details interesting.

Life is punctuated by death; fullfilled upon death.

The reed may bend with the wind, but the winter will impose itself.

(during my reign the golden throne was the cleaner pot @ shot 10)

Am I to read that, in alpinistic terms, YOU, Billy The Mountain are to be recognized as the sole incarnation of Schluct?
Have you always been Schluct?
Are you first generation Schluct or was your momma a Schluct?

The mountains continue to feed us from their empty bowl. Schluctism

Schluct and Schlucter
Does that alpenanswer your question?

Once you ascend chair two, you CAN'T ever just go back "down". Schluctism

I see Chair two not as a mechanical device but more of like a modern day human-tuning-fork.

To tune things while being tuned by things, keep yourself harmonious and whole hearted, stay centered in the fall line and don't loose an eye, or two eyes.

Each ride on this magical chair takes you one time closer to yourself.

not the chair, not the self.

destroy the chair, reveal the self.

If you understood multiple higher dimensional Schuctology you would know what I mean.

I will leave multiple higher dimensional Schulctology as the plaything of multiple higher dimensional intelects.

Snow is as it was yet again.  Schluctism

Toilet cleaning is a very good work for a budding Schluctologist, it is very good for deep inner thought and wavy contemplations of Alpenventures. See how working hard and waiting for "nature to take her course" is the best way?
Tonight I will play my Alpenonium and create a breakthrough, alpandantically.

We are all driving around on the bones of our dead ancestors. Dawn King

Snow is as it was yet again.  Schluctism

ouch, no I might suggest to you that,
Snow, is NEVER the SAME. Snow in fact is a representation of something in a constant state of change. For me, the snow is animate, its my secret friend and so unfortunately I might suggest to you, that your Schluctism is clever yes, its fun sure, its even tricky to say but, it is wrong.
Please forgive my insolence,
BillyTheMountain

Snow is both opaque and transparent! Schluctism

Schluct and Schlucter
Does that alpenanswer your question?

If it does, I should be embarrassed to have asked it.


Chair two; among other things, this is what I was.
Abilities depend on the realm; realm also depend on abilities.
At birth I forgot completely by which path I came.
Not knowing, these years, for what joy I toiled.



"In deep winter powder fortress, ninjas creep in the shadows."  - The Art of Schluct