|
|
|
|
|
|
Turns All Year Trip Reports
(1) Viewing these pages constitutes your acceptance of the Terms of Use.
(2) Disclaimer: the accuracy of information here is unknown, use at your own risk.
(3) Trip Report monthly boards: only actual trip report starts a new thread.
(4) Keep it civil and constructive - that is the norm here. |
|
|
|
|
Author
|
Topic: WMC Update 2012 (Read 30268 times)
|
mountainhorse
5Member
Offline
Posts: 38
|
mountainhorseIf this is anything more than just posturing and hyper-inflation of SMALL or INFREQUENT intrusions into wilderness areas by excluded parties, which could be non intentional ... Then I invite you to provide that information which is verifiable.
Ruffryder
While the amount of incursions seem to be over inflated, the intentions by the ones riding in the wilderness are most definitely on purpose. It has been reported that a group of snowmobilers from Wenatchee are the ones to blame for most of these incursions. They know what they are doing and don't care. Everyone I ride with are very cognoscente of the wilderness boundaries and stay out of them. There is no need to ride wilderness.
mountainhorseAnd what I mean by that is actual USFS reports or the name of a USFS official that will go on record to state that this WHOLESALE intrusion, YOU are claiming, exists.
Ruffryder
It does happen, it does exist. I have seen it first hand in some of the areas I ride in, and many here know about it's existence as well. Though the volume and amount of these incursions from comments made by the WMC seems to indicate that it happens all the time, all over the place, that seems to be unsubstantiated. Unfortunately, snowmobile tracks last till the next snowfall so determining the amount and frequency is difficult at best.
mountainhorseUntil you bring this information forward, please refrain from making these unsubstantiated claims, which I believe are, to coin a word, Veiled attempts to generate momentum for YOUR cause based on an inaccurate presentation.
Ruffryder
The presentation might be inaccurate by the amount of intrusion represented, but the intrusions DO happen. It is unfortunate and it is something that this snowmobiling community is taking VERY SERIOUSLY.
mountainhorseI also support programs that are involved in the marking of Wilderness boundaries...Does WMC participate in or support any such programs?
Ruffryder
Good question..
Thank you Ruffryder for that clear and accurate presentation of the "few rotten apples" above.
quote WMC You are late to the discussion so there is a lot here that you have not read- maybe you should. Several of my friends have been with me on skitours on the Teanaway crest. Lately, we see no snowmobiles in the Voluntary Closure, but one day saw seven snowmobiles then in the Wilderness from our summit that day. Just today I noticed statements from back in 2004 on the Forest Plan website that talk about the snowmobile Wilderness intrusion, consideration of non-motorized areas, other interesting comments and documents. Check it out here- http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/wenatchee/forest-plan/
I HAVE read what you quote above...
I see that YOU make claims.
Also... ONE day does not a "wholesale intrusion" make...
I have also read the 2004 report you quote... It does NOT mention the Wholesale intrusion you present... not does it indicate the rendering of terrain useless for skiers or other non-motor users or presence of snowmobiliers during their observation of TRACKS (the noise of snowmobiles you indicated)...
The report reflects more of what Ruffryder presents... "a few rotten apples"
The same group that snowmbilers should work with the USFS to expose...and make that cooperation and exposure public for all to see.
There is no need for people to break the law to enojoy snowmobiling and sled in areas that are available to non-motor users LEGALLY.
There is a need however for snowmobilers to continue to fight to retain lands they currently have access to and share them with multi-uses...
I do not condone NOR support the operation of motorized vehicles into Wilerness areas or other Designated "non-motorized" areas (whether voluntary or otherwise)
What I asked for ... you did not answer...
Please answer so that ALL involved in this discussion, both skier and snowmobiler alike can develop a more accurate, complete, picture and make their decisions, comments/recommendations based on this.
Thank you.
EDIT: more accuate inof available... trying to be fair so I edited this.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 06/11/10, 01:57 PM by mountainhorse »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
yammadog
Member
Offline
Posts: 145
|
There was no reply this question in the MANY posts that WMC made following Oregongirls question.
Now you are simply stating unsupported rants. Try to read what has been stated, of course you will use it for your purpose- fine, but try to do that from what was stated not from excited mistatement. Please take the time to read before haranguing and bolding your text.
There have been several opportunities to answer questions posed to WMC that have yet to get response, well before Oregongirl posted hers. These questions need to be answered to move forward in suggestion and carry on the discussion.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 06/11/10, 01:02 PM by yammadog »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
mountainhorse
5Member
Offline
Posts: 38
|
WMC: Now you are simply stating unsupported rants. Try to read what has been stated, of course you will use it for your purpose- fine, but try to do that from what was stated not from excited mistatement. Please take the time to read before haranguing and bolding your text.
I will Publicly retract my statemet and appologize to you on this and all forums if you can show me where YOU infact DID reply to this direct question of "public meetings".
I take exceptiton to you stating that I am ranting or "haranguing"...
The ball is in your court sir... for ALL of my Fellow Skiers and Snowmobiler alike to see.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
mountainhorse
5Member
Offline
Posts: 38
|
My lunch-break is long past over... time to get back to work here folks..
I look forward to an open and transparent participation in this discussion, further, this evening.
Be well all!
And happy turns... whatever you may have under you!! 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
hyak.net
Member
Offline
Posts: 553
WWW
|
Term definitions.
Pristine: Any land that is being discussed to be made wilderness or non-motorized is described with this word.
Buffer: Attempted grab at even more land to keep the pesky motorized vehicles further away.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
mountainhorse
5Member
Offline
Posts: 38
|
I'm back for a few..
To be fair, pristine means "unspoiled"
I enjoy the pristine snow of a mountain as I float down the slope on my Snowboard, B3's or Snowmobile.
In public areas close to roads, this is hard to come by.
I DO however agree with WMC that if motorized access were closed HE personally would be alone in the pristine snow for the majority of his backcountry treks in the areas he is proposing. And not see other skin tracks either.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
mountainhorse
5Member
Offline
Posts: 38
|
In the photo you use, WMC, in some of your online presentations... I see an area that is tracked up,Yes...And one that I would immensely enjoy skinning into on my Voile splitboard and dropping some sweet lines in it's depicted state.
My ski touring companions agree with me. I sent them all an email with this very photo. I just called all 6 of them on the phone before posting this.
I TOO enjoy a pristine, untracked area... Who on skis, sled or other baccountry transport doesnt like that...Heck that is what we live for...
There is nothing like making a 1000 vert of graceful linked downhill "S turns" on my snowmobile or snowboard.... But I have to get up pretty early in the morning to get them... I AM willing to get up before dawn to get that.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 06/11/10, 03:13 PM by mountainhorse »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
mountainhorse
5Member
Offline
Posts: 38
|
WMC
And when I say WMC in this post, I am referring to the user that has the user-name "WMC"...
I AM NOT referring to the Group "Wenatchee Mountains Coalition"
These are simple yes or no answers and I politely ask that you limit your response to "yes" or "no" to the entire set of 14 questions below.
Thank you.
1) Is the user connected to the user name "WMC" a distinct person?
2) Are Posts to this thread by the user connected to the user name "WMC", represented in these posts, made by more than one person?
3) Do you belong to any groups that ARE involved in elimination of snowmobile use on ALL public lands not including snowmobile access on public roads?
4) Are you a lawyer doing any Pro-Bono work for any environmental activist groups?
5) Are you a Lobbyist, paid or Pro-Bono, for any environmental activist groups?
6) Are you employed by the USFS?
7) Are you an official, non compensated, volunteer of the USFS?
8 ) Have you attended any Public Meeting with the USFS for the discussion of your proposal presented in this thread?
9) Are you compensated in any way, monitarily or by other non monitary means for presentation of this proposal of this "Non-motorized" area?
10) Are you employed by any lobby groups that are involved in the proposition or introduction of any legislation that would increase the size of non-motorized designated areas?
11)Does the "Wenatchee Mountains Coalition" conduct formal meetings?
12) Does "Wenatchee Mountains Coalition" have any formal membership roster?
13) Does "Wenatchee Mountains Coalition" have a board of directors?
14) Does "Wenatchee Mountains Coalition" represent more than 10 members ON RECORD?
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 06/11/10, 06:16 PM by mountainhorse »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
yammadog
Member
Offline
Posts: 145
|
In the photo you use, WMC, in some of your online presentations... I see an area that is tracked up,Yes...And one that I would immensely enjoy skinning into on my Voile splitboard and dropping some sweet lines in it's depicted state. My ski touring companions agree with me. I sent them all an email with this very photo. I just called all 6 of them on the phone before posting this. I TOO enjoy a pristine, untracked area... Who on skis, sled or other baccountry transport doesnt like that...Heck that is what we live for... There is nothing like making a 1000 vert of graceful linked downhill "S turns" on my snowmobile or snowboard.... But I have to get up pretty early in the morning to get them... I AM willing to get up before dawn to get that.
The areas WMC proposes closed might have similar terrain as that picture and then just on the other side of the ridge would be miles upon miles of wilderness......
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
mountainhorse
5Member
Offline
Posts: 38
|
WMC: We are sure that compared to snowmobile riders there are many many more Forest users who own at least some snowshoes or a pair of xc skis up to someone like me who has $10k worth of touring ski setups and other gear and $1000 snowmobiles.
I do not contest that there are probably more snowshoes and XC rigs in peoples closets or even in use....
I have 4 sets of snowshoes (2 atlas, 2 MSR) 3 Ski touring rigs, 2 spiltboards (only one favorite) in my garage... I strap the shoes onto my snowmobile often and onto my ABS backpack when boarding/skiing.
I often tour / ride and leave the snowmobile at home... sometimes snow-camping.
Earning my turns is a great thing... There is as much athleticism in my snowmobiling as there is in skinning and touring... And I've toured with some pretty hard core Teli/Rondi/AT people in my life.
But lets limit this discussion about THIS area to the actual numbers of:
1) Skiers/snowboarders and other non-motorized wintertime users of the area that is the topic of discussion in this thread here.
2) Snowmobilers and other motorized wintertime users of the area that is the topic of discussion in this thread here.
To come to a proper, Democratic, USFS management plan we will need to get this ACCURATE information out there.
I have not seen that in the 24 pages of the TAY thread or on any of these threads.
If I missed it, which is possible, please direct me to that information.
Thank you.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 06/11/10, 05:18 PM by mountainhorse »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
mountainhorse
5Member
Offline
Posts: 38
|
Yammadog...
Are you saying that there is an area adjacent to this area shown in WMC's (again I refer to the user "WMC") Media photo that is off limits to snowmobiles?
How difficult is it for human powered transport to get to this location from parking lots?
Any pics of that non-motor area adjacent to this one in the photo??
CLARA LAKE AREA
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
yammadog
Member
Offline
Posts: 145
|
I don't know that spot exactly but did a quick search and on the justgetout(Wenatchee outdoors.org) web site, it identifies the Clara lake access for hiking/snowshoeing out of the mission ridge ski area. The slope above the lake are legal riding area per that site.
I've been to the backside of mission ridge from the Reecer and Clockum access and there is some great boondocking down thru the valley but the slope adjacent to the ski area closes out pretty quickly and was cool as a destination, but we didn't stay long as that area wasn't the riding we preferred on that trip.
I'll see if I can find any photo's of the areas or boundary areas in question....
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
mountainhorse
5Member
Offline
Posts: 38
|
mountainhorse
I do not contest that there are probably more snowshoes and XC rigs in peoples closets or even in use.
But lets limit this discussion about THIS area to the actual numbers of:
1) Skiers/sn....
Yammadog: the numbers are muddy at best. generally they are statewide and don't identify sledders with ski/shoe equipment and certainly not able to filter it down to the area proposed, which is significant. they have also been drifting as you could expect by both sides to match the position.
Sounds like a proposal needs to be formally made to the USFS to ask them to study these numbers over the next season BEFORE any kind of recommendations for Policy can be made... in a public forum.
An unbiased determination can only be made by the USFS in a management plan that "promotes parity" if the numbers of users in the different groups are determined first...The users, and not just the vocal ones, should be represented accurately.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
aaron_wright
Member
Offline
Posts: 356
|
Yammadog... Are you saying that there is an area adjacent to this area shown in WMC's (again I refer to the user "WMC") Media photo that is off limits to snowmobiles? How difficult is it for human powered transport to get to this location from parking lots? Any pics of that non-motor area adjacent to this one in the photo?? CLARA LAKE AREA |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
md2020
Member
Offline
Posts: 378
|
that's what's so annoying to me. They have the capability of reaching terrain where they won't bother anybody, but they insist on tearing up the road runs first. I don't get it. Is fuel really that expensive?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Mike Metz
|
|
|
yammadog
Member
Offline
Posts: 145
|
that's what's so annoying to me. They have the capability of reaching terrain where they won't bother anybody, but they insist on tearing up the road runs first. I don't get it. Is fuel really that expensive?
I know most guys I ride with get off trail as soon as possible. Usually the areas nearby the snowpark have little off road access due to tree cover drainages or running in to off limits area. I ride the Gold Creek access at snoqualmie and the shortest road distance is 7 miles to off trail legal riding....
With regard to the above picture, I've not been over that side of the ridge that backs up to the ski area, not sure how they would access it, must be local Wenatchee folks. The website I mentioned before says it's legal riding above the lake. Nice drop line in the middle of the pict..looks big.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
hyak.net
Member
Offline
Posts: 553
WWW
|
To be fair, pristine means "unspoiled"
I enjoy the pristine snow of a mountain as I float down the slope on my Snowboard, B3's or Snowmobile.
If the area is suppose to be getting tore up by snowmobiles, how "pristine" could it be?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
WMC
Member
Offline
Posts: 263
|
Skiers are encouraged to contact USFS and let them know which areas of the Forest are used for skiing, snowshoeing, winter camping, snowmobiling, any winter uses. The Forest Planning Team is here: r6_ewzplanrevision@fs.fed.us We were also informed that Districts are involved so also please let the Districts (see p 23) know where you ski, snowshoe, winter camp, other winter Forest use. The civil comments and input from citizens are appreciated, I am told, by USFS personnel.
Some of us at WMC have helped with this process and find that the Team is generally aware of types and locations of winter Forest uses. We are told that a Draft is being produced that USFS will put out for public comment.
Aside from the above process, WMC is advocating for new and significant winter non-motorized areas on the pristine crest of the Wenatchee Mountains. Part of the proposal is contiguous to the Wilderness Boundary which allows a corridor for skiers and snowshoers to access the Wilderness and also provides excellent areas for skiing, snowshoeing, winter camping and quiet winter use. The east portion of the WMC proposal enlarges the existing Tronsen Non-Motorized Area at Blewett Pass and continues on the ridge to connect with the Mission Ridge Ski Area and include the areas for receation that are very close access to the parked car.
"The vast majority of the 400,000 acres (of public land) in Kittitas County are available to snowmobiles"- a past quote in the local paper from Todd Stiles of USFS Cle Elum. The current Tronsen Non-Motorized Area, primo skiing, appears to be about four sections or around 2500 acres (in Chelan Co, bordering Kittitas Co). What would be the total of all of the Designated and Voluntary Non-Motorized areas in Kittitas County- 10,000 or 15,000 acres?
The WMC Executive has eyeball estimated roughly that the Teanaway crest Wilderness Boundary portion of our proposal at around 20, 500 acres, and the Blewett to Mission portion at around 5800 acres.
Simply put out the Wenatchee NF map and observe all of the area to the south of the Wenatchee mountains crest open to snowmobiling, that could not covered on that map by outstretched hands, compared to the primo-skiing Wenatchee Mountains crest area at Tronsen Non-Motorized area at Blewett Pass- which on the map would be covered by a Quarter coin.
What the Wenatchee Mountains Coalition (WMC) asks for is parity. There are significant numbers of non-motorized winter recreationalists, yet the non-Wilderness portion of the Wenatchee National Forest allows a disproportionate amount of the Forest to be monopolized by one use - snowmobiles. We do not wish to prohibit snowmobiles on the Forest (some of us are also snowmobilers), but because motorized and non-motorized uses are incompatible on the same terrain, we ask for more non-motorized terrain. We invite all winter recreationalists to share their thoughts about this issue and this need with the Forest Supervisor and Forest Planning Team.
Page 1 of this thread has more information about the Wenatchee Mountains Coalition and the Thousand Skiers Project.
Thank you.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 06/12/10, 06:55 AM by WMC »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
yammadog
Member
Offline
Posts: 145
|
You want parity, look a the state map and count the millions of acres of non-motorized already available.
Scotsman had the best suggestion, cut this movement off at the knees. Write your legislators. Don't let one special interest group control your access.
As for the rest of you guys let's work on a real plan that gets you better access perhaps realignment of other areas to achieve the seperation you wish without excluding a large user group from one fo the most popular areas in the state. Then we can present the USFS a workable plan that both sides can support.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
WMC
Member
Offline
Posts: 263
|
You want parity, look a the state map and count the millions of acres of non-motorized already available.
Scotsman had the best suggestion, cut this movement off at the knees. Write your legislators. Don't let one special interest group control your access.
As for the rest of you guys let's work on a real plan that gets you better access perhaps realignment of other areas to achieve the seperation you wish without excluding a large user group from one fo the most popular areas in the state. Then we can present the USFS a workable plan that both sides can support.
What other areas? Be specific please about how you propose to "achieve the seperation." Which "we" are you representing? Snowmobile groups are well organized in groups such as WSSA and SAWS, certainly, a very well-funded special interest group. It is true that a small user group on snowmobiles is taking most of the available resource of snowy Forest slopes accessible outside of Wilderness...and a good share of the Wilderness also.
As we have mentioned above. all winter Forest users are encouraged to give input about their uses to USFS. USFS is producing a Draft that will be put out for public comment at some point.
Thank you.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
ruffryder
Member
Offline
Posts: 125
|
Which "we" are you representing? Snowmobile groups are well organized in groups such as WSSA and SAWS, certainly, a very well-funded special interest group. You have to be kidding me with these statements. You know very little about these organizations, and yet you claim to know about their funding? The WMC should know better to make accusations like these. Snowombilers are interested in discussing the needs of all users. Is the WMC is no longer interested in this discussion?
It is hilarious to think that SAWS is well funded, and WSSA too for that matter, in comparisons to the national organizations like Winter Wildlands Alliance and the Mountaineers.
It is sad to see these misrepresentations being made by the WMC.
It is true that a small user group on snowmobiles is taking most of the available resource of snowy Forest slopes accessible outside of Wilderness...and a good share of the Wilderness also.
True? Based on what? A good share of the Wilderness? These baseless accusations and statements are getting tiring.
Please keep this discussion civil and truthful.
Thank you.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 06/12/10, 02:36 PM by ruffryder »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
WMC
Member
Offline
Posts: 263
|
Let us consider, SAWS states it has 2200 members with donations of $5000 per year. SAWS donates to other organizations and to legal actions. "WSSA has spent over $200,000 in legal fees “Defending Your Rights.” ' WSSA has members including "2,200 families and nearly 100 snowmobile related businesses."
In contrast, the WMC Executive has a budget of $0. For safety reasons especially to keep our families out of it, no one will admit in public that they belong to WMC (another discussion to follow about that). WMC is a small group of citizens who talk to elected officials and USFS folks about trying to get designation of areas for winter non-motorized recreation.
We receive copies of letters in support, and keep those in confidence for the same reason that we keep our names out of public. WMC is entirely a framework for discussion, we go on Forums and start discussions, we talk to officials. Scotsman and some snowmobile advocates wish to cut WMC "off at the knees." WSSA submitted a letter of rebuttal to the USFS written by a marketing professional with a ski area email address. Is WMC a threat? No sir, but we hope that the power of a mobilized citizenry will show all the Organizations who it is that really owns our public lands. We encourage discussion and we talk to officials, we have no budget, no structure- we encourage skiers to speak up to ask for designation of winter non-motorized areas. We are anticipating more of that funding to be thrown at us, but as far as we know, the discussion of issues, advocacy by citizens, discussion with officials about our concerns, are all unassailable activities.
Snowmobile Alliance of Western States
From http://www.snowmobile-alliance.org/faq.asp
Does SAWS charge a membership fee?
No! Our goal is numbers, so that we can represent enough snowmobilers to have an impact on future land use decisions. We leverage email and our web site to support our mission. That is all we do! SAWS does not spend any of our members donated funds mailing our information to our members by US mail, which would be quite expensive to do, considering that we currently have over 2200 members. We will gladly accept donations to offset our costs. SAWS is a 501(c)(3) organization, so your donation may be tax deductible - contact your tax advisor.
Where does my donation to SAWS go?
SAWS receives less than $5000 a year in donations (based on a 3 yr average). We mainly use donated funds to cover our costs which consist of two teleconferences a year, web site fees, educational and promotional items, and occasionally we will request that a SAWS Rep attend a land use related function out of their local area or state of residence. If this occurs, which is very rare, the SAWS Directors usually agree to cover their costs. SAWS also donates funds to existing legal actions to protect snowmobile access, as SAWS has no legal team on retainer (but we are fortunate in that we receive some no-cost legal advice). We send donations to existing legal funds such as the BlueRibbon Coalition Legal Action Fund and other established funds. During 2006, we sent $1500 to fight the caribou related snowmobile closure in north Idaho. We temporarily bank excess funds from any given year in reserve, which will later be applied to the next legal issue or costs that SAWS determines is important to help protect snowmobile access.
Washington State Snowmobile Association
From http://www.wssa.us/content.aspx?page_id=0&club_id=431529
Today, our membership has grown to over 2,200 families and nearly 100 snowmobile related businesses. WSSA has lobbyists working in Olympia on behalf of folks owning more that 36,000 registered snowmobiles across the state. The Association mail out nearly 4,000 copies of its official publication, the Snoflyer, each month from September to March and another smaller edition during the summer months, so that the membership is kept up to date on happening in the snowmobiling world.
WSSA Fundraising letter:
URGENT ACTION NEEDED!!
BY YOU to SAVE YOUR Rights!!
We are about to Lose Major Riding Areas in our state that will pave the way to
make it easier for us to lose additional areas statewide in the future.
We are in a legal fight with the US Fish and Wildlife over the designation of critical
habitat for the Lynx. The designation Violates Several Federal Laws that if enforced would
make it harder for them to place more restrictions and limit our access to prime riding areas.
If we do not take legal action to challenge these actions and point out these violations they
will be free to close more lands without regard to these Federal violations in the future.
WSSA has spent over $200,000 in legal fees “Defending Your Rights” to this land
and other lands in this battle. We need at least $50,000 to finish this legal battle and this is
where you can help.We need donations to our legal fund ASAP! Large or small
donations, it all counts! Help us raise the funds to finish this fight, OrWe All Lose!
Make your contribution now by mailing a check to:
WSSA Treasurer
LEGAL ACTION FUND
P.O. Box 225
Newman Lake WA 99025
You can also contribute by credit card by completing and mailing the form below or you can make your
contribution online at www.wssa.us (Click on ‘Donation’ and then ‘Legal Action Fund Donation’ -A transaction fee may apply)
(End cc)
About the Wenatchee Mountains Coalition
Purpose: Advocacy for non-motorized winter recreation on Forest Lands.
Goal: Designation of USFS Non-Motorized areas for winter recreation. Specifically, we seek non-motorized status for the pristine unroaded crest of the Wenatchee Mountains.
Can you donate to WMC? No, thank you, we dedicate our own efforts to this advocacy, and we will not reveal our identities in public anyway. You may help by contacting USFS to ask for designation of areas for winter non-motorized recreation (see Page 1 of this thread)
Thank you.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 06/12/10, 05:33 PM by WMC »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
ruffryder
Member
Offline
Posts: 125
|
and how does SAWS and WSSA compare against WWA and the mountaineers?
WWA had 500k in revenue last year..
https://www.winterwildlands.org/news/reports/WWA_W09_AnnualReport.pdf
Seems the majority of purpose for the WWA is to help create groups like the WMC to try and push FS to create comprehensive travel plans subdividing usage areas. Their goals are also to reduce the amount of terrain available for motorized uses. The WWA is supporting the actions of the WMC. While the WMC might be a very small group of people, the WWA and the Mountaineers put big numbers and big money into this. Something that the snowmobile community lacks and does not have.
Your comparisons are lacking substance.. Maybe you can compare the WMC to the 4m. That might work. 0 funds as well, members, well, I guess that would be the people responding on these threads... To make the assumption that it is only the WMC, all on its own, is false. You guys are getting help from big players..
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
ruffryder
Member
Offline
Posts: 125
|
Scotsman and some snowmobile advocates wish to cut WMC "off at the knees."
The proposal, not the group... jeez....
FYI, Scotsman I don't think even snowmobiles. Many people who are against this proposal don't either. They are against the proposal because it isn't needed, because during their many backcountry visits, there is no conflict that can be found. I believe Scotsmans point was that it is not appropriate for one special interest group (WMC) to make a proposal on its own without having input from the rest of the user group. The public land is just that, public. All peoples opinions and considerations should be heard and acknowldged. This is something that the WMC has consistently failed to do, and the reason for the statement above..
This is OUR land, we ALL should have a say in how it is used, not just one small group, pretending to speak on the behalf of all non-motorized users, especially when their methodology is to get everything that they can.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
WMC
Member
Offline
Posts: 263
|
... To make the assumption that it is only the WMC, all on its own, is false. You guys are getting help from big players..
Thank you , we all will have a big belly laugh about that one! WWA picked up our cause and posted it on their threads. They have emailed. We really appreciate that. I am not aware of other help, will be thrilled when it arrives, and I do not think we three partners hold out on each other. Really, that made me laugh!
After getting going with this, we learned that basically we are coming to this cause late, several entities have previously wanted the Teanaway crest and Wenatchee Mountains to be managed as we propose to some degree. But perhaps now you cannot complain about monotone repetitive WMC responses. Oh well, keep it up, we need to laugh!
Thank you.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 06/12/10, 06:19 PM by WMC »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Thank you to our sponsors!
|
Contact turns-all-year.com
Turns All Year Trip Reports ©2001-2010 Turns All Year LLC. All Rights Reserved
The opinions expressed in posts are those of the poster and do not necessarily
reflect the opinions of Trip Reports administrators or Turns All Year LLC
|
Turns All Year Trip Reports | Powered by SMF 1.0.6.
© 2001-2005, Lewis Media. All Rights Reserved.
|
|
