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Topic: WMC Update 2012 (Read 29637 times)
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hyak.net
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So where are all of these individuals supposed to go with their families to snowshoe? We don't have access to the wilderness areas in this area (OWNF). Outside of wilderness the Okanogan-Wenatchee NF, and all national forests for that matter, are dominated by one user group - snowmobiles. The current situation on the National Forests outside of wilderness is open to motorized users. What snowmobilers have is a defacto motorized play area on the vast majority of the forest. I support WMC in trying to find equality between the user groups, as it stands now. These figures above do not even include skiers, snowboarders, dog sledders, etc.
I hope and expect the FS to provide us with both access and acreage to be able to enjoy the forest in the same way that snowmobiles are allowed access and acreage to enjoy their sport. I would like to be able to drive to a FS road and step out to a non-motorized plyaground just as like you do.
There are large areas in the Snoqulamie Pass region that are easy access and non-motorized for snowshoeing. You don't need wilderness to snowshoe. It is not hard to find what your looking for. Sometimes it appears the motor-less traveler is looking for confrontation to make a point rather then just having fun. There is so much forest out there it is very easy to find trails to travel with all the aspects of what your looking for. If it is confrontation your looking for, there is that too.
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WMC
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Please take the time to read this thread. USFS is charged by Executive Order to manage the Forest and is required to manage motorized use on the Forest by specifically designating areas for motorized use.
Yes, please write and contact the appropriate officials with individual input, that is our intent. We seek for our appropriate Officials to manage the problems that we describe.
We have often stated that we seek a fair share of the Forest for winter non-motorized recreation. We do not seek to exclude other uses from the Forest. Our view based on our various members' 40 to 100 days skitouring per season, and up to 40 days using snowmobiles, is that increasingly through omission by lack of management winter non-motorized users are being squeezed from their use on the Forest.
Thanks for the discussion.
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Scotsman
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We do not seek to exclude other uses from the Forest.
Yes you do.
Perhaps it would be more honest and clear to write.
"We do not seek to exclude other users from the forest" ...entirely... just an increasingly large area of it.
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Marcus
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Are we now discussing writing to our elected officials with a poster who is not a US citizen, or do you actually vote?
As far as I know, Scotsman is a US citizen, not that it matters. Let's keep to the issues, not the people behind them.
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WMC
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Yes you do.
Perhaps it would be more honest and clear to write.
"We do not seek to exclude other users from the forest" ...entirely... just an increasingly large area of it.
Please read back through the thread in regard to areas and acreage. Forest was capitalized, meaning the general Forest, Yes, absolutely, if non-motorized users are excluded then in order to have multiple-use on the Forest some areas will need to be designated as non-motorized.
How many days have you ridden snowmobiles on the Forest in your life? From what experience do you relate your perspectives? Have you observed the effects of snowmobiles on snowy mountain slopes? We ride snowmobiles out to skitour, since the '80s and we see the increasing domination of snowmobiles on snowy Forest slopes.
And what of the areas mentioned, shall we discuss the issues? Jim Hill, Arrowhead, Tunnel Creek, Wellington, Skyline Ridge, Lichtenberg, Smithbrook, Rock Mountain, Nason Ridge. All are well known for skitouring, snowshoeing, snow camping, quiet non-motorized winter recreation. All are areas that may be lawfully accessed by snowmobiles, many of those areas and also other areas from Smithbrook Road and even into the Wilderness there are already incurring snowmobile use. In the future, these areas not currently heavily used or not used, by snowmobile riders, will need winter non-motorized designation if skiers wish to reasonably continue their use. Otherwise, these areas will be as is much of the Forest, single-use of snowmobile riding in winter, not multiple-use at all.
Skiers must consider areas that are favorite ski tours that are non-Wilderness but not yet accessed by snowmobiles. Eventually it is very likely for those areas to be used for snowmobile riding. This further illustrates the need for USFS to designate which areas of the Forest outside Wilderness are appropriate for motorized use in winter, and which areas are appropriate for winter non-motorized recreation. As discussed at length here, modern snowmobile capability allows snowmobile riding now on nearly any slope that would be useful for skiing! For example, this thread http://www.snowandmud.com/forum/f14/mmm8-invitational-krazy-chutes-castlegar-bc-30234.html shows extreme terrain that is used by snowmobile riders in Canada.
Simply put out the Wenatchee NF map and observe all of the area to the south of the Wenatchee mountains crest open to snowmobiling, that could not covered on that map by outstretched hands, compared to the primo-skiing Wenatchee Mountains crest area at Tronsen Non-Motorized area at Blewett Pass- which on the map would be covered by a Quarter coin. WMC proposes winter non-motorized designation for the pristine unroaded crest of the Wenatchee Mountains.
We seek a fair share of the snowy forest to be set aside for winter non-motorized use.
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« Last Edit: 06/03/10, 07:00 AM by WMC »
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yammadog
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Cut this movement off at the knees. Prevent the FS from making a unilateral decision without public discussion , mandate or funding to enforce. WMC has shown absolutely no intention to negotiate or reach a mutual user agreement. Contact your senatorial candidates and tell them that if they support this proposal you will take your vote elsewhere. The public lands are for all to decide how they are managed not just this group who won't compromise. http://murray.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=ContactMehttp://www.dinorossi.com/
Perfect...
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WMC
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"Cut this movement off at the knees.
Prevent the FS from making a unilateral decision without public discussion , mandate or funding to enforce.
WMC has shown absolutely no intention to negotiate or reach a mutual user agreement."
Perfect...
Perfect why? Do Scotsman and yammadog wish to stifle citizen discussion of the issues? Our observation is that some language and name calling here has stifled discussion from gentle folks, at least one post here was pulled after posting. WMC engages in discussion with various stakeholders in regard to these issues including the opposition.
WMC wishes to educate and mobilize skiers and snowshoers in individual advocacy to USFS asking for more designated non-motorized areas on the Forest in winter.
Simply put out the Wenatchee NF map and observe all of the area to the south of the Wenatchee mountains crest open to snowmobiling, that could not covered on that map by outstretched hands, compared to the primo-skiing Wenatchee Mountains crest area at Tronsen Non-Motorized area at Blewett Pass- which on the map would be covered by a Quarter coin. WMC proposes winter non-motorized designation for the pristine unroaded crest of the Wenatchee Mountains.
We seek a fair share of the snowy Forest to be set aside for winter non-motorized use.
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yammadog
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There are large areas in the Snoqulamie Pass region that are easy access and non-motorized for snowshoeing. You don't need wilderness to snowshoe. It is not hard to find what your looking for. Sometimes it appears the motor-less traveler is looking for confrontation to make a point rather then just having fun. There is so much forest out there it is very easy to find trails to travel with all the aspects of what your looking for. If it is confrontation your looking for, there is that too.
Indeed....
Write your officials to keep public lands open to the public...all of the public.
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yammadog
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Are we now discussing writing to our elected officials with a poster who is not a US citizen, or do you actually vote?
As far as I know, Scotsman is a US citizen, not that it matters. Let's keep to the issues, not the people behind them.
Does WMC wish to elevate himself above other citizens to get his way?
Write to keep your lands open and then use it or lose it....
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WMC
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WMC would encourage the 151,000 non-motorized Forest users and the 35,0000 owners of Registered snowmobiles in this state to discuss, give input, and comment to the appropriate Officials. (Figures were posted here and justified by other posters).
This Washington State Parks website of Sno Park locations has maps of areas across the state. It is very instructive to view the maps and note the few designated non-motorized areas. this illustrates the need for USFS management to allow uses other than snowmobile riding in the winter by the designation of new and significant winter non-motorized areas.
http://www.parks.wa.gov/winter/trails/?TrailType=motorized
About the Wenatchee Mountains Coalition
Purpose: Advocacy for non-motorized winter recreation on Forest Lands.
Goal: Designation of USFS Non-Motorized areas for winter recreation. Specifically, we seek non-motorized status for the pristine unroaded crest of the Wenatchee Mountains.
Initial action -- the Thousand Skiers Project: One thousand skiers/snowshoers/Forest users will write (email) the Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest Supervisor and request designation of new non-motorized areas on the Wenatchee Mountains. The ‘significant’ area we are targeting is the unroaded Wenatchee Mountains ridge crest from Van Epps Pass to Three Brothers (mountain). This encompasses Ingalls Peak, Fortune Peak, Iron Peak, peaks surrounding Bean Creek, Earl Peak, Navaho Peak, Three Brothers and the Wenatchee Mountains Crest from Rd 9716 to the west of Diamond Head across Tronsen Head, Mt. Lillian including down to the Old Ellensburg trail to Mission Peak and on to the Mission Ridge Road including Lake Clara, Mission Peak, and surrounding areas. This area would offer many short day-tours, long day tours, overnight self-powered ski tours, and snowmobile road-assist tours. We hope to generate a thousand comments by August 15, 2010.
Contact information: Mail, email, or call
Rebecca Heath, Forest Supervisor
Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest Headquarters
215 Melody Lane
Wenatchee, WA 98801
(509) 664-9200
Email: Rebecca Heath, OWNF Supervisor, and the Forest Plan Revision Team: r6_ewzplanrevision@fs.fed.us
Carbon Copy Us: wenatcheemountainscoalition@hotmail.com. We need to track our support and to capture additional thoughts and ideas of non-motorized recreationalists. Your privacy is paramount, we will not share your contact information or reveal your identity.
Help us Succeed. Please forward this message to your skiing/snowshoeing friends. Ask for their involvement.
Thank you.
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« Last Edit: 06/15/10, 04:06 PM by WMC »
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yammadog
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Write to keep your public lands open to all of the public....and if you look at a map, look at the state map/green trails or topo where you will find more information to help understand "parity"....which will include the wilderness areas that are non-motorized.
Also take a look at the North Cascades thread to see the type of impact closing lands have on the public.
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hyak.net
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We have often stated that we seek a fair share of the Forest for winter non-motorized recreation. We do not seek to exclude other uses from the Forest. Our view based on our various members' 40 to 100 days skitouring per season, and up to 40 days using snowmobiles, is that increasingly through omission by lack of management winter non-motorized users are being squeezed from their use on the Forest.
I find this segment of the conversation riddled with hypocrisy. "we seek a fair share of the Forest"? What does this mean? Non-motorized users have use of 100% of the forest, but what you really desire is the exclusion of other groups of folks so you can have more segments of the forest to yourself.
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md2020
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Write to keep your public lands open to all of the public....
they are already open to all the public. 
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« Last Edit: 06/03/10, 09:39 AM by md2020 »
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Mike Metz
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WMC
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I find this segment of the conversation riddled with hypocrisy. "we seek a fair share of the Forest"? What does this mean? Non-motorized users have use of 100% of the forest, but what you really desire is the exclusion of other groups of folks so you can have more segments of the forest to yourself.
WMC would encourage the 151,000 non-motorized Forest users and the 35,0000 owners of Registered snowmobiles in this state to discuss, give input, and comment to the appropriate Officials. (Figures were posted here and justified by other posters).
This Washington State Parks website of Sno Park locations has maps of areas across the state. It is very instructive to view the maps and note the few designated non-motorized areas. this illustrates the need for USFS management to allow uses other than snowmobile riding in the winter by the designation of new and significant winter non-motorized areas.
http://www.parks.wa.gov/winter/trails/?TrailType=motorized
On Page 15 WMC discussed some estimates of size and use. Again, simply put out the Wenatchee NF map and observe all of the area to the south of the Wenatchee mountains crest open to snowmobiling (from the Cascade Crest nearly to the Columbia River), that could not covered on that map by outstretched hands, compared to the primo-skiing Wenatchee Mountains crest area at the current Tronsen Non-Motorized area at Blewett Pass- which on the map would be covered by a Quarter coin.
Thank you.
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yammadog
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they are already open to all the public.
Not all of it and more exclusions to more people is what is in the works here and all over the west.....
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WMC
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Not all of it and more exclusions to more people is what is in the works here and all over the west.....
No lands are being 'closed' to Forest users. Some are being designated as winter non-motorized, a use that has arrived late in some types on the Forest. Similar to the fact that one may not just drive a car anywhere, fly an aircraft or land anywhere, build a fire anywhere, cut down trees at will. In an extreme example, in the Enchantments core USFS instructs users in summer to urinate on rocks- pretty specific. On Mt. Adams USFS provides blue bags to be used for human waste to be carried off of the mountain and disposed of properly below. In areas that dogs are not allowed in summer and areas requiring hikers to have Permits in summer, snowmobiles are being ridden. USFS exists in order to manage Forest lands for multiple-uses according to Law and Executive Order. Certainly the regulation of a powerful motorized machine that produces hydrocarbon emissions is reasonable in the consideration of the situation.
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« Last Edit: 06/03/10, 10:19 AM by WMC »
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yammadog
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Is this Arizona now? Do you want to see my papers??? This group wants an expansion of wilderness to specifically exclude other legal users so they can get their their powder turns in the area they want. They constantly talk about being snowmobile riders as well but its clear they see snowmobiles as logging road tools only. They don't want to sit down with the snowmobile groups and try and negotiate a mutual user agreement similar to what has been done in other areas. To do so would be messy and at times uncomfortable but then democracy can be messy. They want the USFS to unilaterally declare huge areas of land inaccessible to current legal users without study and in their favor based upon their concept of fairness and their inherent dislike of motorized recreation. If they succeed, they won't stop there, they will want more and more. When you try and reach some common ground with them.. it doesn't work.. they aren't really interested in any compromise. As I have said , see this for what it is.... not a bunch of ski-tourers complaining about not getting enough untracked powder... but an attempt to fundamentally alter the current legal public land use ..forever.. and without study. Their argument that parity in demographics shouldn't count because of increased area coverage by snowmobilers is philosophically flawed, "My vote should be worth more than a snowmobiler's when divvying up the territory". Really ? Write to your officials, legislators, senatorial candidates, the USFS and anybody who will listen and stop them in their tracks ( or in this case their lack of tracks) http://murray.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=ContactMehttp://www.dinorossi.com/
Here's a fellow skiers perspective....
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aaron_wright
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Not all of it and more exclusions to more people is what is in the works here and all over the west.....
Are you saying that you are being banned from areas of the Forest? As far as I know, there are few(any?) areas of the Forest that are closed to the public. If you mean areas that you can't sled in they are few outside the Wilderness. Snowmobile use needs to be managed on FS lands, just like all uses, currently there is little if any management of snowmobiles in the Forest.
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ruffryder
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I find this segment of the conversation riddled with hypocrisy. "we seek a fair share of the Forest"? What does this mean? Non-motorized users have use of 100% of the forest, but what you really desire is the exclusion of other groups of folks so you can have more segments of the forest to yourself.
agreed
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WMC
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WMC will ask please for decent and civil discussion here. WMC recognizes that others have opposition to some concepts, that is their right. In response to those in opposition, WMC will strongly state its case and disagree, argue, but will endeavor to not characterize or name-call any individual taking a different or opposition viewpoint. We ask for proper language, civil behavior, and good faith discussion and debate. Thank you.
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yammadog
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I find this segment of the conversation riddled with hypocrisy. "we seek a fair share of the Forest"? What does this mean? Non-motorized users have use of 100% of the forest, but what you really desire is the exclusion of other groups of folks so you can have more segments of the forest to yourself.
And where does it stop?
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yammadog
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A response to WMC's posting over at NWhikers 4m...
"The post, and this particular statement, are general and assumptive. Snowmobilers like any other user group have a widely varied user base seeking their own experience. Some prefer just riding the roads. Some prefer sitting in a bowl and highmarking all day. Others, myself included, are willing to do the work and take the risk and will push thru more difficult terrain and trees to seek out unridden areas within the National Forest. If we are willing to do that work to get to some back bowl that nobody else rides- why cant a skiier? Why the special treatment?
The desired terrain/areas that most snowmobilers often seek out are clear-cuts. With the advent of the Northwest Forest Plan and others- logging in the National Forests has declined. My example being the Gold Creek/Mt Margaret/Lake Kachess area. In the late 90s riding was fantastic up there due to the recent logging activity. Now some 10-15 years later- the trees are growing the wide open hills arent so much anymore. Give it another 10 years and its a whole new game. Snowmobilers will have to seek out other areas to ride. How does Forest Service begin to administer that relative to my earlier statement about people seeking out their own user experience.
Snowmobiling has changed without a doubt as the machinery has gotten better- however not just in the past 10 years, 20 years- but over the past 30 years. However generally as a snowmobile rider, I havent ridden in any area that I havent ridden in the past 10-12 years. Could you provide specific examples of where snowmobiles are now going that they haven't already in the 10-20 year time frame?
Ive seen more and more people toting skiis and boards up the hill on snowmobiles these days. I've seen where they get to a bowl and set-up and start making turns on a hill and the snowmobilers leave them alone. Its kind of like at the beach. You show up early in the morning on a nice summer weekend- you probably get the pick of your spot. You show up at 2pm- you get the sucky spot. Why not do the work and get there early to have that hill to yourself. If as a rider I want to make first tracks on an epic powder day- I leave early....To me is just seems you want special status granted for your user experience because you dont want to do the work- either to get away from the masses or leave early to stake your claim."
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aaron_wright
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A response to WMC's posting over at NWhikers 4m...
"Others, myself included, are willing to do the work and take the risk and will push thru more difficult terrain and trees to seek out unridden areas within the National Forest. If we are willing to do that work to get to some back bowl that nobody else rides- why cant a skiier? Why the special treatment?
You show up early in the morning on a nice summer weekend- you probably get the pick of your spot. You show up at 2pm- you get the sucky spot. Why not do the work and get there early to have that hill to yourself. If as a rider I want to make first tracks on an epic powder day- I leave early....To me is just seems you want special status granted for your user experience because you dont want to do the work- either to get away from the masses or leave early to stake your claim."
The areas that the poster are referencing as unridden have most likely been skied for decades.
If I show up at 0400 to ski and you show up 0700 to sled you will always beat me to the remote location and track out the terrain. You're reply would most likely be "I was here first", but were you really?
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ruffryder
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WMC would encourage the 151,000 non-motorized Forest users and the 35,0000 owners of Registered snowmobiles in this state to discuss, give input, and comment to the appropriate Officials. (Figures were posted here and justified by other posters).
WMC, you figures are incorrect for the amount of snowmobilers. The number is 98k for snowmobilers, as per the Washington SCORP estimates, which are utilized in the WWA pdf that was used in YOUR posts as having important numbers. Please stop using incorrect data in this discussion.
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md2020
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A response to WMC's posting over at NWhikers 4m...
"Others, myself included, are willing to do the work and take the risk and will push thru more difficult terrain and trees to seek out unridden areas within the National Forest. If we are willing to do that work to get to some back bowl that nobody else rides- why cant a skiier? quote]
too funny. Now I see what we're up against.
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Mike Metz
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