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Topic: Why do tele/rando skiers boot up mountains? (Read 3997 times)
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Ned_Flanders
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In the past month, I have done two very popular ski tours: st. helens and the birthday tour. During both of these tours I noticed an extremely large percentage of people booting up. I understand that they are both popular and have a ladder of footsteps to follow, but why would you want to carry your skis if you can skin?
joshua
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Paul Belitz
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Cuz I prefer to have 10 rather than 25 pounds of stuff on my feet. Plus when booting you don't have to worry about icy spots, you don't need to switchback, etc, etc. If I don't sink in, I don't skin.
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skykilo
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Because I prefer weight on my back to weight on my feet, given that there isn't a lot of fresh and I won't be postholing. My gait is faster that way.
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Ned_Flanders
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I understand that more weight on your feet can be worse. Especially, when the snow is firm or icy, skinning sorta sucks, when you can just boot or crampon straight up the slope, but I guess that is why I bought ski-pons.
For me, I like to use my skis as much for the touring aspect as well as the downhill and always try to push skinning as much as humanly possible. I guess it all depends on what people are comfortable with and/or what their goals are.
The only reason I posted this was because on st helens, the snow was very soft and people were still booting. From my perspective, it seemed slower and much more tiring. I was with a snowboarder who was walking up and he was wishing that he had a split board.
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markharf
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I prefer skinning, but I've timed one against the other and found bootpacking significantly faster and easier under the right conditions. This assumes firm snow, good footing, and a certain degree of steepness; on the flats, or in soft or icy snow, skinning rules. An existing boot ladder makes things even easier.
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Jeff Huber
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Doing Hood the other week I took my skis off above the Palmer lift (it was either that or put on ski crampons). It ended up being the wrong decision. With skins I was passing folks but sans skins I was no longer passing--I was noticeably slower and it felt like I was working harder. Snow conditions were firm and there was a good bootrack.
That said, sometimes when it's firm and even just moderately steep I often feel more comfortable bootpacking with crampons rather then skins and ski crampons even though I generally think it's less efficient.
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"...always majestic and inspiring, always attractive and lovely. It is the symbol of an awful power clad in beauty." Bailey Willis in 1883 upon visiting Mt Rainier
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alpentalcorey
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I pretty much agree with everything markharf just said: I prefer skinning, but if booting conditions are better/faster I boot.
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Paul Belitz
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always try to push skinning as much as humanly possible
That strikes me to be as intelligent as postholing through chest deep powder, trying to push bootpacking as much as humanly possible.  Suit the tools to the task.
Jeff, I would like to humbly suggest that Hood above the lifts simply isn't steep enough for booting to be more efficient than skinning.
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« Last Edit: 05/10/04, 10:50 AM by pbelitz »
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Jeff Huber
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Jeff, I would like to humbly suggest that Hood above the lifts simply isn't steep enough for booting to be more efficient than skinning.
I agree, I think you're right. St Helens has about the same pitch though
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« Last Edit: 05/10/04, 10:56 AM by Gaper_Jeffey »
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"...always majestic and inspiring, always attractive and lovely. It is the symbol of an awful power clad in beauty." Bailey Willis in 1883 upon visiting Mt Rainier
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Ned_Flanders
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That strikes me to be as intelligent as postholing through chest deep powder, trying to push bootpacking as much as humanly possible. Suit the tools to the task.
Obviously, I was exaggerating and when skinning becomes slower and more work, I boot. Booting can be faster, but I usually get more worked. Like I said it all depends on what you want and like to do. If the slope isn't too steep, it is just as fast for me to keep the skis on, even when icy.
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« Last Edit: 05/10/04, 12:33 PM by Ned_Flanders »
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Paul Belitz
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I agree, I think you're right. St Helens has about the same pitch though
I dunno, I think that several sections might be steeper. But I haven't been on Hood for a few years, so I know nothing.
Ned: of course, I was exaggerating, but it made my point nicely. Personal preference. But I still maintain the right to laugh at Dave and Amar when they skin up rock-hard late summer snow. 
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ron j
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As a card carrying representative of the geriatric crowd, my nod would go to Ned and Markharf. My tendency is to prefer to stand on one ski and drag the other, rather than carry them both on my pack. I usually load up when the slope gets so steep that the traversing is slowing me way down by making me cover too much ground. 'Course loading up is a lot more complicated for me 'cause I usually already have my walker loaded up too.
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"When I stop having fun I'm turnin' around"
"Remember, breaking trail and allowing old people to have fresh tracks is standard backcountry protocol." - Zap
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Paul Belitz
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The REAL question should be: how steep can you skin dragging a pony keg? Maybe kam can chime in.... 
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ron j
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Yep, that IS a good question, Paul
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"When I stop having fun I'm turnin' around"
"Remember, breaking trail and allowing old people to have fresh tracks is standard backcountry protocol." - Zap
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markharf
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[quote author=ron j 'Course loading up is a lot more complicated for me 'cause I usually already have my walker loaded up too.
Yeh, you know Ron I've been thinking of buying me one of those geezer-specific backpacks, with the special velcro-ed sleeves for the cane and walker, and the metered medication dispenser built into the hydration tube. I just can't decide whether to drop the extra bucks on the anti-gravity option. What do you think?
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ron j
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Yeh, you know Ron I've been thinking of buying me one of those geezer-specific backpacks, with the special velcro-ed sleeves for the cane and walker, and the metered medication dispenser built into the hydration tube. I just can't decide whether to drop the extra bucks on the anti-gravity option. What do you think?
You're kidding, right? Why, hell, you haven't even worn out your mountain specific greek sneekers with the wings on the heels and the Ascension skin material on the soles that you climbed Adams with last year. You got a long ways to go, youngster
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"When I stop having fun I'm turnin' around"
"Remember, breaking trail and allowing old people to have fresh tracks is standard backcountry protocol." - Zap
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khyak
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Because they suck! I cant believe two people actually said they wanted to get the weight on their backs. The whole purpose of skinning is get the weight off your back! When done correctly, skinning involves sliding your skis across the surface. This keeps the weight on the ground. You are not lifting your feet but are sliding them forward. Many gapers do exhibit the bad technique of lifting their ski as they move it forward. Keeping your ski glued to the ground does take practice as the natural stride tends to lift your skis off the snow. Yes when it gets steep, and you can no longer maintain good edge grip then it becomes necessary to boot it up. Don't be a Gaper!
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gregL
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I, too, switch to booting when I feel that it's the more efficient mode of ascent, usually over 30-35 degrees, depending on snow conditions, or in narrow slots/questionable snow cover. Having skied a bunch with khyak this season, I can in retrospect report having made the wrong call on numerous occasions - both taking the skis off and leaving them on - he's gotten there first (sometimes, in my case, the problem was overly aggressive route selection). As far as the conditions originally mentioned in this thread, I wasn't on St. Helens, but in borderline conditions (and especially if you're sinking in past boottop), I would vote for the least taxing mode, which for me is skins. Again, snow conditions are everything, a frozen corn surface or an icy wind-scoured ridge can change that quickly. (On the Birthday Tour, we only booted for about 100 ft. the whole day).
pb: Not always the best choice for skiing DOWN the hill, but not much more than 10 lbs., whether on your feet or on your back . . .
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« Last Edit: 05/11/04, 01:11 PM by gregL »
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markharf
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Most of us seem to be making perfect sense, quibbling only about relatively insignificant details. Like Greg, I've often judged incorrectly?booted when I should have skinned, skinned when I should have booted.
FWIW, I've both skinned and booted up that last 100 feet to Blue Lake Col, and booting is generally easier. In powder, however, and when the cornice isn't too threatening, sometimes I just don't feel like bending over to take off my skis (see geezer references above). At those times, powering up the slope just feels better, efficiency be damned.
In the end, the most efficient way to spend your time has nothing to do with spending hours and hours climbing mountains in order to return to the bottom at a high rate of speed. I'm in favor of doing more of whatever feels good at the time. If I didn't enjoy the uphills, I'd retire to something less stressful, like watching extreme sports on TV from the comfort and safety of my couch.
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Lowell_Skoog
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I prefer to skin. For me, booting up to ski down is like doing half a ski trip.
I also feel that skinning is more efficient than booting in most snow conditions (but not all). Its like the difference between walking on pavement and walking on sand.
A lot of my early trips were overnighters or multiday trips carrying a heavy pack. Taking skis off the feet and piling them on top of an already heavy load was to be avoided, so I worked on my skinning technique.
A few years ago my wife and I skied the Monte Rosa in Switzerland. We left the cabin in the dark when the snow was frozen hard as a rock. Nobody climbed on boots. Everybody used skins and harscheisen. We "did like the Romans" and it really did seem faster.
I can't recall ever being passed on a long climb by someone on foot when I was on skins.
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« Last Edit: 05/11/04, 05:16 PM by Lowell_Skoog »
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Paul Belitz
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I can't recall ever being passed on a long climb by someone on foot when I was on skins.
This might have to do with something other than the relative efficiencies of skins vs boots, rather the relative efficiencies of the skinner vs hiker....
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« Last Edit: 05/11/04, 08:01 AM by pbelitz »
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Jim Oker
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...which perhaps makes a good point about the comment "I'll take a nap on the summit while waiting for you"?
I know people who have back trouble and so strive to keep their packs light. I know people who either have bad climbing technique (yes - this takes a while to develop, just like downhill technique, and can make a large difference!!) or poor equipment (e.g. straight skins on heavily shaped skis) who will boot up when possible.
I personally try to pick a nice moderate uphill line and keep skis on feet whenever possible, and don't worry much about who is getting ahead or behind, but if it is starting to be a pain (e.g. slipping out sideways or backwards, too many kick turns required, etc. then I start hiking). Works well for me, and most of my partners seem to be able to follow such a line w/o cursing. I kept skis on longer than most on the headwall on the Adams false summit last summer, and seemed to be keeping pace with the same hikers I then kept pace with after switching to hiking (due to starting to slip out sideways a bit), so my guess is that in borderline conditions it's a bit of a wash, frankly, and so no need to get on high horses on this topic unless your pals are holding you up due to pig-headedness!
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skykilo
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After seeing Lowell, and subsequently trying ski crampons myself, I definitely agree about the harscheisen. I still feel the same way in general, but when (and it is no longer if) I get ski crampons of my own it will greatly extend the range of conditions and slope angles in which I skin.
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Lowell_Skoog
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I also feel that skinning is more efficient than booting in most snow conditions (but not all). Its like the difference between walking on pavement and walking on sand.
Extending this idea, when I do take my skis off to boot, I will often put on crampons even if they're not strictly necessary. If I have to kick very hard to make a step, if figure I'm wasting energy and time. With crampons I just step rather than kick-step. This is especially helpful when climbing a weak crust. You're less likely to punch through the crust if you don't have to kick steps.
I like to zig-zag like a spider up the slope with crampons, an ice axe, and one ski pole. I rarely boot straight up a slope unless my path is restricted or I'm following a ribbon of good snow.
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« Last Edit: 05/11/04, 05:12 PM by Lowell_Skoog »
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BigSnow
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If ski crampons are not a choice (and I don't have them) I find that there is a point where I am doing a lot of switchbacks to gain elevation at a slower pace than a straight boot up. It is always a tough choice though, considering the time it takes to pack up the skis and get moving. If it makes an opportunity to take a needed break and rehydrate then that doesn't matter, but it is always a decision.
I hear the argument that skinning ought not be done by greatly lifting the ski, but then skin drag is also an issue. Pushing the ski is not all that efficient either. Certainly not as easy as swinging a boot on hard snow. The general rule is that 1 pound on the foot is like 5 on the back and even if you skin with the most efficient gait, I think that the added weight of ski and wet skin can really add up, especially if one doubles or triples the distance with switchbacks.
Having said that I noticed that I actually am getting to a point where I feel more secure on steep slopes (hard summer stuff) with skis on than with boots and no crampons. Skis also will bridge hazards more safely, whether they are seen or unseen. Also, sometimes I just like the more steady pace that seems to come with skinning switchbacks and in that I think I would side with Lowell, considering that I really do ski for the experience and the excersise anyway.
Last week I made a big mistake and booted a section on the Silver Star Glacier to avoid what I thought was a long extended switchback. I saw an old boot stairway and didn't realize how mushy the snow was. Ugh! Became committed and really spent a lot of energy on that one.
Alan
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