Snowmobiles Where They Shouldn't Be- Discussion

This thread is for any posts related to this topic except for actual documentation (sightings, tracks, etc), which should be posted in this thread .<br><br>

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<br>Chris Hamel and I tried to ski the SE slope on Mt. Stuart. ÊNo we didn't quite make it - it's a long ways for a 2 day trip and we should not have wasted time, having fun skiing in Beverly Creek basin the evening before. ÊIt's a surprisingly beautiful route, opening up wide and smooth a few thousand feet up the gully.<br><br>Snow machine tracks covered much of Beverly Creek Basin. ÊWe don't know exactly how they got there, but Chris thought it was legal. ÊNot legal though is going over the Beverly-Turnpike Pass with a snow machine and down into Ingalls Creek Basin (Alpine Lakes Wilderness). ÊAnd there were tracks going a long ways down and then diverting from our route. ÊI'm going to complain and hope that one day the FS takes this problem seriously. ÊThere is no evidence that they do yet! ÊI've also seen them in the Mt. Baker Wilderness (Welcome Pass and Church Mtn) Êand the Pasayten Wildeerness (Buffalo Pass and the West Fork of Pasayten River). ÊI suspect they are in these places every winter weekend.

SB,<br>Thank you very much for your report. I think it is imperative for us backcountry skiers to protect the wilderness. I'm thinking a strategy is to not only report our observations, but to document and photograph them as well-then forward these to the F.S., and demand enforcement. Without our concerted, public, documented evidence, the F.S. will continue to ignore these ongoing transgressions under the guise of inadequate resources. Perhaps a strategy would be to combine our observations with a collective demand for winter buffers around the wilderness, thereby helping to insure wilderness integrity and protection. With documentation backing up our witnessing, we can request allied clubs and greater organizations to support our efforts! Only by making enough noise can we get F.S. attention, and then get the attention of the snowmachine organizations - who will recognize the danger to their playgrounds, and cooperate by helping police their own errant cowboys. Your thoughts?<br>GerryH

I have been thinking about starting a thread in which we could compile evidence of snowmobiles in places they are not supposed to be. Having all reports collected in an ongoing thread would make it easy to reference when contacting the proper "authorities" (using the URL of the thread). I could make the thread stay at the top of its board so it wouldn't get pushed down and lost. Photos could be included. What do you think about this idea?

Charles,<br>Great idea! By preparing now, and even adding what we can in the waning part of the season, we'll all be prompted and ready for next season's observations. We should figure out a notification/presentation strategy for the F.S., BLM or NPS, as appropriate. The sooner they know we're publically tracking these events, probably the better? What might really get peoples attention would be some miscreant photo's, in the act, with veh. id #'s, etc., which could be used to force the FS to prosecute? That would take a little more doing, and is certainly the their responsibility as we provide real evidence. Let's keep these thoughts going!<br>GerryH

This is a really good, useful idea.

I'm very supportive your suggestion, Charles, to have a central place where we can document incidents of snowmobiler violations that can be used in commuication with the FS.  <br><br>My experience a few weeks ago on Baker is a case in point, although I don't know for sure if they were outside their "approved" boundries on the Easton at 9000' (if not, it should be).  <br><br>www.turns-all-year.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB...splay;num=1082045060

I did take some pictures of snowmobilers at the Sherman Peak crater rim earlier in day.  I'd be glad to post those and assert my thoughts on the matter regarding the crevasse rescue situation.

Thanks for your suggestion and taking the initiative.

I think keeping a thread for documentation is a great idea. It's a start, at least.<br>Larry R makes a good point about the difficulty of enforcement, especially if it is to lead to criminal charges. However, the FS did show us how many resources can be diverted from it's day-to-day activities like trail maintenance and road repair for parking enforcement under that ridiculous parking permit Fee Demo.<br>Sadly, I doubt backcountry skiers can generate the type of political pressure like the American Recreation Coalition, which helped create the Fee Demo. The only viable option may be to get the biler community to police itself by threatening to close off snow machine access to entire non-wilderness areas, which are used to access the wilderness areas. <br>It's doubtful that any major redirection of enforcement resources will occur under our current Administration (think Yellowstone), but all the more reason to start documenting infractions now, so that there is a buildup of political pressure in place when Bush is voted out.

Here is a recent related article.<br><br>www.tahoedailytribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...ws/104230005/-1/NEWS

It sounds like some folks want to do with the Teanaway what was done to NF Tieton- make it ungroomed skier only. If you work towards keeping me and my dogs off of roads, much less wilderness areas, then we need to talk. Otherwise, I've encountered errant 'bilers before and I am willing and able to take it to whatever level they wish.

The following are posts on this topic which have been moved here from another thread to consolidate them.<br><br>

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<br>From Gaper_Jeffey:<br>Charles, Thanks for providing this thread. Marcus Libkind, a Sierra XC Ski book author and extremely vocal opponent of snowmobiles, maintains a "User Conflict Database" of snowmobile violations. You and others concerned about this important issue may wish to use it:<br><br>www.snowlands.org/issues/conflicts/tracking.html

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<br><br>From Charles:<br>Gaper_Jeffey, thanks for the link. Do you know if Snowlands handles reports from out of the California/Nevada area? I couldn't see a way to view all of the reports they have received, so maybe a thread like this could be useful because the info will be available to everyone?<br><br>This is from the Snowlands web site:<br>

Situations which promote Òuser conflictÓ must be resolved in favor of the lower impact user group. ThatÕs the law!

<br>Does anyone know more about this law?<br><br>I also found this explanation of "user conflict" on that site:<br>

If your recreation experience was adversely impacted, that is Òuser conflict.Ó You need not be run over! You need not have even seen a snowmobile. Damage to Nordic-trails or finding snowmobile tracks in the Wilderness can be conflict.

<br><br>

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<br><br>From Larry_R:<br>Hi Charles<br><br>Thanks so much for taking on this challenge!<br><br>I have some reservations about posting violations of voluntary closure areas under the heading 'snowmobiles where they shouldn't be' because as I understand it, they still have a legal right to be there. Maybe separate slot for these reports. <br><br>This winter, as in the past, snowmobile violations of the voluntary closure of FS Road 4315, which ascends Sasse Ridge were too numerous to count, but there was one incident that seemed particularly telling, and is still irksome to me.<br><br>At the start of this road, the FS maintains a number of signs that indicate that this is a voluntary snowmobile closure, and in particular there are two standard diamond shaped signs with the skier logo indicating that this is a ski trail. One is located at the start of the road, and the next is at the junction with the prepared ski track.<br><br>Here is part of an Email I sent to the FS at the time:<br><br>As I started skiing up to my usual campsite Tues AM, Dec 30 [2003] I noticed that the<br>'blue diamond' sign post near the start of road 4315 [at the trail junction] appeared to be missing. But<br>then the cause became all too apparent: A single snowmobile track now covered by<br>maybe 2 inches of snow, diverting from the usual packed track, went right across<br>where the sign was, and then back onto the track. The top half of the pole with<br>attached sign was down flat off to the side, with several inches of snow<br>covering. The remaining lower half of the pole was broken off at snow level, and<br>was dead center in the snowmobile track. The driver had a good aim!"<br><br>Perhaps the person was 'just having fun' but this incident can easily be taken as intimidation; that skiers don't belong in this area, etc.<br><br>LR<br><br>

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<br><br>From Charles:<br>Larry, you are probably right about the "voluntary closure" areas. After looking at the Snowlands site, I'm wondering what our biggest complaint is: snowmobiles trespassing into Wilderness Areas, or actual (live) skier-snowmobile interactions? I have a feeling that it is the former for the type of skiing people on this board do, but that might not be right.<br><br>If anyone has contact info for the different Wilderness Areas with regard to this topic, could you post in this thread? I will copy the info to the contact post near the top of this thread.<br><br>

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<br><br>From pbelitz:<br>Does the inside of the crater of Baker count as 'off limits'? Jeff and I did the Boulder-Park Cleaver over the weekend and witnessed two 'biles INSIDE the crater. I was hoping that they'd fall into a fumarole, but no such luck. I hate those things. Ê&gt;<br><br>

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<br><br>From username:<br>

Does the inside of the crater of Baker count as 'off limits'? Jeff and I did the Boulder-Park Cleaver over the weekend and witnessed two 'biles INSIDE the crater. I was hoping that they'd fall into a fumarole, but no such luck. I hate those things.  &gt;

<br><br>Tell me you got pictures?

No, I figured it wouldn't do any good. I considered mooning them, but I had summit fever.

Would there be anyway that signage could be used to help the snowmobilers understand where the wilderness boundaries are at?<br><br>The signage in Washington does appear to be very good when it comes to marking the wilderness areas. I know we have maps and what not, and a person be all accounts is supposed to know where these places are.<br><br>I've been to places in Montana where the wilderness is marked with "orange signs" in the heavily traveled areas so you know exactly where it is at and you can stay out.<br><br>Anyways, just an idea to help educate people who could possible be making a mistake and accidentally riding their snowmobiles where they are not supposed to.<br><br>I personally feel most people obey the laws (snowmobiliers included) it's just a few bad apples that make it bad for everyone.

Hiker: I agree that most snowmachiners like to follow the rules, at least whenever they're made clear. To some extent, resentment of snow machines involves the fact that they're loud, smelly and in other respects antithetical to the sort of experience for which many participants in this particular forum are searching. I assume you understand that part, and that neither you nor we need to belabor the point. <br><br>Aside from all that, I am intrigued by the possibility that snowmachiners might actually not be aware of the boundaries beyond which they're forbidden on the south side of Mt. Baker. Do you think this is a major factor in the many boundary violations up there? If so, what would you suggest doing to better educate sledders? Bear in mind that massive snows in that area (and the fact that the glaciers are in constant downhill flow) would make it impractical to signpost those boundaries. <br><br>I ask out of genuine interest. Thanks in advance for whatever input you've got.<br><br>Enjoy,<br><br>Mark

Like the snowmobile-riding 'hiker' suggests, we need more signs. We need to put bright orange signs all over the Easton and Squak, and along the crater, spaced at 25 foot intervals. Due to heavy snowfall, we should have rangers go up there every other day to make sure the signs are not buried. And the signs will have to be relocated occasionally due to glacier creep, but why should that a problem? We also should have parking meters at trailheads, escalators up the Eldorado creek drainage, and mandatory safety meetings every hour, headed by rangers. <br><br>Some guy on teletips suggested the use of these .<br><br>Other suggestions? Let's just ban recreational snowmobiling.

...I am intrigued by the possibility that snowmachiners might actually not be aware of the boundaries beyond which they're forbidden...

<br><br>While this could be the case in some instances, I know it is not the case for the violations I have seen on the north side of Mt. Adams (unless the machines' drivers can't read). There, bright orange signs have been nailed to trees where the Divide Camp trail leaves the road and enters Wilderness, and the snowmobile tracks have gone right by them. Once above treeline and onto the glaciers, there should be little doubt to anyone that the Wilderness boundary had been passed long before, so I have to conclude that the trespasses were willful.<br><br>Ignorance of the law is not a valid defense in other settings, and I don't see why it should be any different in this circumstance. To be a law-abiding citizen while operating a motor-powered device in the vicinity of a Wilderness boundary requires that the operator know where the boundary is.

escalators up the Eldorado creek drainage<br><br>I like this idea Paul. Do you think Justin could find them though?

Oh well sure, I could find them, but that would interfere with splitboarding training!

I like this idea Paul. Do you think Justin could find them though?

<br>Soda out my nose! LMAO.

I am not so naive as to believe that more thorough signage will magically resolve all snowmobile boundary violations...but nor am I so naive as to believe that merely complaining loudly will cause snow machines to be banned from all my favorite ski destinations. If Hiker (or others) have constructive suggestions about getting their fellow sledders to follow existing rules with even marginally more dedication, I'm happy to listen. <br><br>Posting photos of weaponry, even in jest, seems remarkably unlikely to enhance the discussion.

Hey it was just a suggestion... I didn't say it was going to solve all problems, if any..<br><br>I supposed until last year I wasn't riding in many areas that bordered too close to the wilderness areas, so it wasn't really a thought of mine, until lately.<br><br>I realize that if your riding in an area that is close to a wilderness boundary that you should get informed so you know where you are at and you can stay out of the wilderness. I just know that a snowmobile can cover a lot of ground in a day so a person could accidentally end up in the wilderness. (Is this an excuse?, No, of course not.) I don't know one snowmobiler (sledder) who would agree that it is OK to ride in the wilderness either.<br><br>It's just that the snowmobile has advanced so far, so quickly, that this is a potential problem that could be happening in some instances, at least that was my thinking. What brought me to this train of thought, was I was riding close to the Alpine lake wilderness and we were riding near the Van Epps pass area, which is technical but rideable terrain with the new sleds made today. I remember looking down at some awesome untracked area and was thinking wouldn't that be fun to ride. Knowing where I was, I look around very hard, tree after tree after tree and finally found 1 sign that said the wilderness was on the other side. The sign was very hidden and weathered and not obvious at all.<br><br>I think signs would help (the less informed) in some instances where there are trees to post them to in popular riding areas. I thought a bright color would help too since the color "white" is not easy to find in the winter time. In the summer it's easy to find these signs cuz you are on a designated trail and you have to pass by the sign before continuing on. Obviously, putting signs in non treed areas or above the tree line won't work, they would just get buried and it's not cost effective to have someone move them.<br><br>As far as the sledders that willing go past the signs stating no snowmobiling, they make me sad. There are a lot of good and honest people who enjoy the outdoors through snowmobiling and all it takes is (1) to ruin it for all. This goes the same for when someone is hiking, biking or anything. If people keep breaking the rules, then eventually no one be able to enjoy it cuz it will be taken away. All you can do is tell someone they are breaking the law, educate them, if they choose to continue to break it, then report them to the proper authorities. I know that is what I would do, if I noticed someone doing that. I'd try to stop it and if that doesn&#8217;t work then call it in.<br><br>I would like to say that 2 sleds can leave behind a lot of tracks, so sometime it may look like a dozen people broke the law when in fact it was just 1 or 2. I know, that doesn't make it any better. Just trying to make a point that most sledders play by the rules and only a few break them.<br><br>Markharf- Thanks for lending an ear. I think that there is plenty of forest for everyone to go and do there own thing and be happy. Although, I ridden on Baker a few times I've not pushed towards the boundaries too much. Can you tell me where people are entering the wilderness at up at Baker? I belong to a different forum and I would be glad to spread the word and try to stop any illegal activity? I don't know if I can accomplish much, but I can try to do my part to keep sledders in the right areas.

Hiker1: <br>You really need to consult a map for the finer details, but here's topozone:<br><br> topozone.com/map.asp?lat=48.7667&lon=-12...um=nad83&layer=DRG25 <br><br>You can see that the recreation area, in which snow machines are legal, extends in a triangle south-ish and southwest-ish from the lower summit, Sherman Peak. The upper Easton Glacier, all of the Deming, the edge of the crater, plus the lower Squak and its meadows, are all illegal. <br><br>I imagine that most sledders up there know this, but I could easily be wrong. If you start asking around about it, I'd be interested in hearing what sorts of responses you get.<br><br>Hope that helps.

markharf-<br>I shall read a map and get back with you. I was aware that the boundary was pie shaped like your map shows. I thought the boundary extended a little further up the mountain to the crater but according to your map it looks like it does not go quite that far.<br><br>You mentioned something about sledders going across into the wilderness on Mt. Baker. Do you have 1 or more areas where you seen this happen? After, I get more educated on the landmarks and other points of reference on Mt Baker I will pass on the information as best as I can.<br><br>Thank you for taking the time that you have and I will get back to you at a later time and let you know what I find out.

Anyone who skis on the south side of Baker in the spring has seen snow machines cross the line into the wilderness. For example, as the map shows, the crater rim is wilderness, and you've probably seen sledders up there. No mystery to this. I'm not up there much, but there are often tracks onto the Deming at least as far as the saddle. In the incident reported here in which a rider was pulled out of a crevasse at 9000 feet, I'd have to wonder whether they were within the (legal) recreation area, which is pretty narrow at that elevation. <br><br>My point, at least at the moment, is not to complain; I'm trying to make the point that violations are routine, not exceptional. <br><br>

This is a topic where the discussion could have easily turned nasty, so everyone is to be commended for keeping it constructive!<br><br>HIKER1, thanks for your perspective as a sledder (is that the right term?) and, especially, your willingness to take this issue of machine violations of Wilderness Areas back to your fellow sledders. Mark's and Larry's last comments point out what may be the most objectionable aspect of all to non-motorized folks, namely the prevalence of Wilderness Area violations. It is hard to believe that all of the violations are due to a "few bad apples" when there is evidence of them virtually every time one comes to a Wilderness boundary.

Great discussion, for the most part. I sense some strong feelings here. As a frequent backcountry skier and snowboarder who occasionally snowmobiles, I appreciate the topozone map showing the boundaries and your clarifications. I'm planning an Easton glacier approach via snowmobiles with skiing above. So... if you see my sleds parked in legal territory, please don't roll 'em down the mountain - I'm up above enjoying a day of skiing with friends.