- Posts: 75
- Thank you received: 0
Do I *need* All Wheel Drive?
- The_Snow_Troll
- [The_Snow_Troll]
- Topic Author
- Offline
- Junior Member
Now, I get out less and hate the poor fuel economy of the Subaru....so....
Do I need AWD? Would the Jetta TDI be a good substitute? Do I wait for the Forester TDI as a compromise?
(killing time while at a management seminar)
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Ritalin Kid
- [Ritalin Kid]
- Offline
- Junior Member
- Posts: 80
- Thank you received: 0
It's funny, I was thinking about how great an AWD diesel wagon would be. The only one (to my knowledge) on the market is the Audi A3 TDI with quattro, but it's not really a full wagon.
I didn't know that Subaru was going to bring the diesel Forrester to the US, that seems like an awesome rig.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- PNWBrit
- [PNWBrit]
- Offline
- Senior Member
- Posts: 316
- Thank you received: 0
It's funny, I was thinking about how great an AWD diesel wagon would be. The only one (to my knowledge) on the market is the Audi A3 TDI with quattro, but it's not really a full wagon.
A3 diesel doesn't come with Quattro in the US .
Which is dumb.
Since it is available in Europe.
But I've never been able to understand how the car companies figure out their US/Euro product lines.
Now, I get out less
It seems to me if you fix this your car dilemma becomes a non-issue?
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- The_Snow_Troll
- [The_Snow_Troll]
- Topic Author
- Offline
- Junior Member
- Posts: 75
- Thank you received: 0
It seems to me if you fix this your car dilemma becomes a non-issue?
Point taken, then I have to add the cost of family counselling
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Aleksey
- [RuSki]
- Offline
- New Member
- Posts: 34
- Thank you received: 0
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Charlie Hagedorn
- [trumpetsailor]
- Offline
- Elite Member
- Posts: 913
- Thank you received: 1
That said, AWD is inherently better. Plus, you needn't chain up except in the very most dire of interstate circumstances. The road has, as RuSki says, its risks.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- JibberD
- [JibberD]
- Offline
- Senior Member
- Posts: 267
- Thank you received: 0
It's a tough choice... but a fun one to make, right!?
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- DG
- [DG]
- Offline
- Junior Member
- Posts: 150
- Thank you received: 0
Do other skiers on this post get by OK with fwd and snow tires? 4wd sounds nice, but as mentioned, it seems you take a hit on fuel economy with most any model you buy.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Charlie Hagedorn
- [trumpetsailor]
- Offline
- Elite Member
- Posts: 913
- Thank you received: 1
(I say bring that car back into production, circa 1999 body)
Absolutely. The pre-1997 Escorts rock, in my humble opinion.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- korup
- [korup]
- Offline
- Junior Member
- Posts: 220
- Thank you received: 0
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Don Heath
- [Rusty Knees]
- Offline
- Senior Member
- Posts: 314
- Thank you received: 0
However, if after that you do want one, look for one on Craigs list soon.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- PNWBrit
- [PNWBrit]
- Offline
- Senior Member
- Posts: 316
- Thank you received: 0
I missed my AWD.
The days I really want to ski and to get there early to do so make it worthwhile. living in a foothills neighborhood where a couple of inches of ~sea level snow make the place impassable for two days also helps the purchase process.
Or just get a PT Cruiser. So long as you have a high tolerance for Scottish accented road rage.
Edit: Those old Escorts? Really? People like those things? I'm just stunned.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Snow Bell
- [Snow Bell]
- Offline
- Junior Member
- Posts: 177
- Thank you received: 0
The only other car that I have had that even came close in terms of traction was our early 90's Legacy. That car was cool because it had an "off road" option which lifted the suspension a couple of inches. It probably negatively effected traction control a bit but was helpful in deep snow. We liked that car pretty well. Maybe you need an economy daily driver and a cheap dedicated ski rig, stickers and all. Maybe extra lights, rocket box, a small plow... I think that's your answer. If you can't get your hands on the vintage Escort due to their popular demand, I'll bet you can scoop up grandmas old suby for cheap.
Come to think of it; (is that the proper use of the semi colon?) Skierlyles just bought one of the small Subaru AWD's. The Impreza Sport I believe. That seems to be targeted at you.
All that being said, I have never set out to ski and not arrived due to my car. I have ditched the car and hitched to the pass a couple of times but I always made it and so will you if you are dedicated. Besides, if your rig sucks, your buddies are more likely to drive you. ;D
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- skierguitarist
- [skierguitarist]
- Offline
- Junior Member
- Posts: 64
- Thank you received: 0
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- aaron_wright
- [aaron_wright]
- Offline
- Senior Member
- Posts: 429
- Thank you received: 0
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Alan Brunelle
- [BigSnow]
- Offline
- Senior Member
- Posts: 260
- Thank you received: 0
The only other car that I have had that even came close in terms of traction was our early 90's Legacy. That car was cool because it had an "off road" option which lifted the suspension a couple of inches.
Snow Bell,
Still have my '93 Legacy. It had that very same feature and was a great snow mobile. Still have it with 245,000 miles on it. That levitation feature was lost when the pneumatic shocks went out on it after ~170k miles and it was cheaper to have the whole suspension replaced than getting new shocks. I think that it may have been one of the all time best snow cars. Probably rivaled the GL style Subaru. I have never once used anything but all weather tires on the car, never used chains except once in the neighborhood on ice, and I have done trips up to Stevens and other places almost every weekend during the past 4 winters in all kinds of snow conditions.
The car is really suffering right now, with the drivers side window lifter broken and after it had an accident last spring. But I just cannot seem to get rid of it. I will probably buy an old used Subaru, since I have heard on this forum that the newer ones just are not a snow savvy.
Regarding this post, I think that front wheel drive should be fine for most of the snow-controlled roads, but the tires are extremely important. My wife's front wheel drive volvo was horrible in the snow, but once we wore out the factory supplied tires (which are almost always a performance style tire) it does much better with the typical Michelin all weather tire.
Alan
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Andrew Carey
- [acarey]
- Offline
- Elite Member
- Posts: 912
- Thank you received: 0
The problem is not chemical pollution, but particulates. Bunker fuel burning ships, diesel trucks and heavy equipment, and diesel school buses cause a 40% increase in adult-onset asthma in Seattle in the 90s. New diesels with particulate filters are better, but I haven't seen any documentation on how much particulates they emit.
/s/ an adult-onset asthma victim who quickly suffocates behind diesels, including Volkswagens, Mercedes, and US PU trucks.
Oh yeah, and our old Subaru Legacy Outback was by far the best handling vehicle we've had for icy and snowy roads. My Dodge Hemi PU with 20 inch wheels and 10 ply M&S in low 4WD does better in snow deeper than 8 inches, altho it can get stuck too Haven't checked mileage, but there are alternatives to the Sub out there, like the Rav4 etc.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Alan Brunelle
- [BigSnow]
- Offline
- Senior Member
- Posts: 260
- Thank you received: 0
One source that really irks me is UPS trucks! I remember some years ago a business report about how efficient UPS was and noted that their trucks had a major positive impact on their business. Well I guess they didn't take into account the fact that one UPS truck seems to put out more diesel soot than most 18 wheelers. It bugs me that I have to go get an emission test every so often yet these black smokers are out on the road at will. My guess is that "efficiency" means the cheapest damn power train possible, with no regulations requiring them to spend a dime on pollution control.
Alan
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Gregg_C
- [Gregg_C]
- Offline
- Junior Member
- Posts: 149
- Thank you received: 0
Was in Nelson last winter before New Years during the big storm. Got to try out some different cars in the snow while we waited for a day to fly into Kokanee Hut. The '95 Subie with all season tires was scary bad in the snow compared to my 900. The Ford aerostar with snows was better!! There was no comparison. I could break traction quite easily with the Suby. Tires make a huge difference!
Next month I am going to have ScanWest install a Limited slip differential in the Saab and that will make the car even better in the snow. AWD is over rated unless you are living in snow for many months and have to get up steep snow covered roads on a daily basis (Mazama).
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- watsonskipsmith
- [watsonskipsmith]
- Offline
- New Member
- Posts: 41
- Thank you received: 2
truck chassi
wide wheel base
excellent clearance
with AWD and 4 snow tires it totally rocks in the snow!!
nice and dry place to change at the trailhead.
gets about 20 MPG
reasonable cost
easy to find service (which has not been an issue for my past 2 astrovans
dont need no stinking roof rack
not sexy, not sporty, looks like a toaster.
profiles well with cops, they think its a minivan!
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- khyak
- [khyak]
- Offline
- Junior Member
- Posts: 112
- Thank you received: 1
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- PNWBrit
- [PNWBrit]
- Offline
- Senior Member
- Posts: 316
- Thank you received: 0
you should try to take your foot off the brake to regain control.
Actually that's what ABS does. ???
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Alan Brunelle
- [BigSnow]
- Offline
- Senior Member
- Posts: 260
- Thank you received: 0
Actually that's what ABS does. ???
Actually, my ABS do not do that. They pulse at a fairly high frequency. Their release phase is too short to accomplish what khyak is referring to.
I think that ABS works best on wet roads. The kind of skids I have corrected required a complete release of the brake for a second or so. The wheels then can fully turn, steer into the skid to get control and then stop braking like an idiot that got me into the skid in the first place.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- snowdawg
- [snowdawg]
- Offline
- Junior Member
- Posts: 53
- Thank you received: 0
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- PNWBrit
- [PNWBrit]
- Offline
- Senior Member
- Posts: 316
- Thank you received: 0
But only because a fully locked wheel can build up a wedge of snow/gravel. This would seem to be the exact opposite of what you're both explaining.
Otherwise the non-locked up wheel of an ABS equipped car allows wheels to rotate and steer fully during braking exactly as you describe the releasing of brakes allows.
Being a better driver than ABS is an old wives's tale almost on a level with seat belts causing drowning deaths.
Edit: ABS also has a vital role in stability control/anti skid systems where one or more brakes are applied independently of driver input.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Alan Brunelle
- [BigSnow]
- Offline
- Senior Member
- Posts: 260
- Thank you received: 0
In fact the situations that I found where the ABS was most effective was on gravel. Very effective.
I'm not against ABS, I it is just my experience that I have not had to rely on it that much. On the other hand please understand that I am not one of those drivers out there every day trying to push the limit. I'm just an old guy that has had some experiences. Maybe my old beater just has a lousy implementation.
Alan
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Don_B
- [Don_B]
- Offline
- Junior Member
- Posts: 99
- Thank you received: 0
or
this one
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- bcglaxer
- [bcglaxer]
- Offline
- New Member
- Posts: 37
- Thank you received: 0
I'm in the same situation (trying to decide between fwd and 4wd) as my car right now has 213k miles and needs to be replaced.
Do other skiers on this post get by OK with fwd and snow tires? 4wd sounds nice, but as mentioned, it seems you take a hit on fuel economy with most any model you buy.
I drive a 2000 Chrysler 300M that is front wheel drive and chains won't even fit on it. I drove it down in Utah through Bryce and Zion a few years ago when 4 feet of snow dumped in one night and didn't have a problem. The only problems I have in Washington are when they physically check for chains. I think it's less about the car and more about the driver.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- PNWBrit
- [PNWBrit]
- Offline
- Senior Member
- Posts: 316
- Thank you received: 0
II think it's less about the car and more about the driver.
Illusory superiority and driving ability
"Swenson (1981) surveyed students in Sweden and the United States, asking them to compare their driving safety and skill to the other people in the experiment. For driving skill, almost all of the US sample (93%) and 69% of the Swedish sample put themselves in the top 50%. For safety, 88% of the US group and 77% of the Swedish sample put themselves in the top 50%.
McCormick et al. (1986) asked subjects to evaluate themselves on eight different dimensions of driving skill, such as the "dangerous-safe" dimension or the "considerate-inconsiderate" dimension. Out of 178 subjects, only a tiny minority of responses were below average and for some of the measures, large majorities rated themselves as above average. Taking the eight dimensions together, just under 80% of the subjects put themselves above the average driver."
here's a clip of an ex Formula One and Le Mans race car driver demonstrating how ABS/Stabilty control works better than he can manage on his own
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- khyak
- [khyak]
- Offline
- Junior Member
- Posts: 112
- Thank you received: 1
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.