Whippet vs. Claw - a debate

In discussing possible trips for this coming summer, I returned to the idea of supplementing my safety gear with self-arrest grips. Or at least a self-arrest grip, as it were.<br><br>It seems my two primary options are the Black Diamond Whippet and the Life-Link Claw. <br><br>With its metal pick and adjustability, I think it safe to say the Whippet is the superior of the two; however, using the Whippet will require me to also throw down for a pair of BD poles. On the other hand, I have been skiing with the same pair of Life-Link Variant poles for the past 8 years to much success, so find the idea of the affordable-but-plastic Claw appealing.<br><br>That said, what are some opinions on the matter? Has anyone used one or both that could provide insight? Are the savings for the Claw outweighed by the benefits of the Whippet?<br>

Well, I've been using a pair of Whippets since 1997. First of all, let me resolve the biggest misconception regarding Whippets: you DON'T have to "throw down for a pair of BD poles" in order to use them! All you need to buy are the BD Traverse spare lower shafts ($20 each) and the BD claw baskets ($3.50/pair) . You can also use the BD Adjustable Probe lower shafts ($28.95 each, M/F) as I do, which join to make a marginally useful 6 ft probe (I've also made an adapter so my snow saw can attach to the end of the M shaft for cutting deep blocks). But I'm fairly certain that the BD Expedition Pole lower shafts (too thin and short) do not work with the Whippets.<br><br>The advantages of Whippets are overwhelming: 1) the steel pick makes a fine ice axe for most snow climbing encountered in ski mountaineering, therefore I now carry my ultralight Grivel ATR axe mainly for decoration / training weight; 2) the Whippet picks are far superior to the plastic Claw for self-arrest on hard frozen snow such as that encountered early in the morning on late spring and summer ski trips; 3) the picks are removable in less than 1 minute per pair, so to reduce the self-impalement hazard, I prefer to always keep them in my pack unless I'm skiing or climbing steep terrain where I might need them.<br><br>I suppose it's obvious that I consider the BD Whippets to be one of the most innovative and useful backcountry ski products ever created. Major thanks to designer Andrew McLean. They are expensive ($78 each), but really worth it. But perhaps you could get lucky like I did in 1997 and find a PAIR on sale for $42, at an unnamed local outdoor store which went out of business soon thereafter (they were mistakenly selling pairs of them together instead of single ones, and it was on sale for 30% off the $60 list price). A real steal of a deal.<br><br>Amar Andalkar<br> www.skimountaineer.com <br>

I have heard it rumored that for the '04-'05 season, BD will be selling the ENTIRE pole with Whippet handle for around $80 (each) - when exactly this pricing change will take effect and whether it will be in time for your trip is another question. <br><br>(Note: Jeff Maudlin at BD later confirmed this, the retail price for ONE complete pole with Whippet handle will be $79.95 for next year, this will apply to orders to be shipped in late summer/early fall of '04 - roughly a savings of $21 over parting out the Whippet/lower shaft/basket at present)

Both the whippet and claw are useful. The claw is better in soft snow because it has a thicker pick and the whippet is better in hard snow because it has a thinner pick. I've been using claws since Paul Ramer released them in the early 1980s and I bought a pair of whippets a few years ago. I sometimes carry one of each, since I own both and since snow conditions can be unpredictable.<br><br>I disagree with Amar that the whippet is overwhelmingly superior. In soft snow conditions, which is what you hope for if you're skiing a slope that may require a self arrest, the claw is a better choice. A whippet may just slice through the snow in those conditions. On the other hand, a whippet is nicer on those crusty mornings when you're climbing up a slope with crampons and ice axe and you'd like a second tool. <br><br>Amar suggests leaving your ice axe on your pack and climbing frozen snow with whippets. I suggest using your ice axe when the snow is frozen and carrying claws for the descent, when the snow is soft. That seems to me the best use of tools to span a range of conditions.<br><br>A whippet may be a better choice if your focus is steep skiing and you expect to push snow conditions toward the hard, sketchy side. On the other hand, if you're looking for an arrest grip for general use and you typically take your skis off when the snow is really hard, I would recommend the claw.<br><br>Paul Ramer was the real innovator in creating the first self arrest grip. Andrew McLean is to be commended for developing a version that is superior in hard snow conditions.

...I think it safe to say the Whippet is the superior of the two;

<br>

... The advantages of Whippets are overwhelming:

<br><br>To each his own.  Like Lowell, I can't say I agree with the above statements.  I have also been using the Ramer Claws since Ramer's "push button" days.  <br><br>The skinny whippet scares me; I can just see it sticking through my body after being impaled on it in one of my "mixmaster" falls.  I do agree that it is probably the better tool for hard snow... but that's only assuming you can prevent it from twisting to the side. To do that effectively (at least for me) you would likely have to switch to a two handed grip (like an ice axe) with one hand across the head (or in this case the whippet).  If you have to (drop one pole and) switch your grip, you lose the advantage of catching yourself quickly before allowing speed to build up.  I'll switch to my light ice axe if I find myself REALLY wanting to continue to climb in those conditions.  Bear in mind, (to borrow a phrase from Robie) I'm a SKIER with an Ice Axe -- not a hard core mountain climber that skis.  So I tend to turn around when the skiing conditions start to deterioriate.<br><br>The claw, on the other hand, has the flat knuckle guard area that tends to help keep the spike pointed at the snow (while holding the pole one handed with the skiers grip) while also protecting the knuckles.  Thus I believe it's easier to use the claws for quick, hip level, double clawed catches (or self arrests).<br>I also find that climbing with two claws is handy in other ways, from giving you additional choices of hand placement to being quite useful while scrambling up steep pitches of both snow and dirt.<br><br>Bottom line: I agree with Lowell.  <br>Nonetheless, who knows, if I were as gnarly a climber as Amar I may also be a whippet junkie instead of a claw proponent.

Thanks for the feedback. Lowell and Ron, I have to admit you caught me a bit narrow in my thinking; I was considering the Whippet vs. Claw in a hard snow scenario (only, it would seem). Oftentimes I resist switching to my axe for whatever reason, even though I likely should for safety's sake - thus the thought that I should have some type of contingency plan for such situations.<br><br>The issue is a bit deeper than I had initially considered, however. This gives much food for thought - much appreciated.

I have found the life-link claw to be totally adequate in all conditions except for water ice, and I don't really want to ski water ice anyway.  That said, I have thought about getting a pair of whippets for steeper stuff.  I do worry about stabbing myself, anyone here ever done it?<br><br>Ron - do you know where I could get a second life-link claw for my probe pole setup?  I would need the one for the pole with the grey plastic, if that means anything to you (can't remember offhand whether it's the male or female attachment for the probe).  <br><br>To be honest, as much as the claw is for self-arrest, when I don't need it for that I like to hold it backwards like a cane on the approach by shortening it and holding/pushing down from the top.  I like how it feels and feel I can push off better that way.  If I had 2 then I could do it with both hands, which I know I would like.<br><br>edited to add: I belive you can get a pair of whippets with the bottom poles too from telemark-pyrenees for ~$100, which seems cheaper than they are here, although the exchange rates aren't so favorable anymore.

Corey - I too, like using my claws as you describe. <br><br>Much of the time the local shops only carry one of the claws. I believe it's usually the male, meaning when you screw out the lower pole section and withdraw it and look at there is a threaded hole in the end (as opposed to a threaded bolt sticking out, which would screw into the female claw. I don't remember for sure which is usually stocked 'cause I have both).<br><br>I got the other one (more than once) from life link direct.<br>You can get their customer service # off their web site:<br>www.life-link.com/
You need to tell them what you want, they don't show two types of claws on their web site.

I do worry about stabbing myself, anyone here ever done it?

<br><br> ;DAlmost. Once I was crankin' down the Coleman Glacier flats doing about 35-40mph.  I hit one of those sticky, pollenated sections and I went over the handlebars.  I only use one whippet and it definitely broke the skin of my torso, but didn't really puncture me.  That said, if you crash on one, The Claw can still puncture you, just a bit more blunt that's all.<br><br>Despite my close call, it doesn't really worry me much as I don't tend to fall too often.<br><br>As far as soft snow is concerned, the Whippet does have that perpendicular fin on the top edge that gives some stopping power as long as you slam the pick in all the way...my 2 cents.

Sweet Ron, thanks!  I will definately try to get one before the spring touring seson really gets rolling.<br><br>Sam - guess we posted at the same time! Your story inspired a little tangent of my imagination...<br><br><br><br>Associated Press<br><br>Deming Wa - A local man was found dead on the slopes of Washington's Mount Baker. According to authorities the man's ski tracks indicated that he had just completed an epic descent from the summit of the 10,781 foot volcano to where his body was found just above the snowline. Authorities have not ruled out accidental death or foul play but currently they believe it may have been a suicide. According to local police chief officer Wiggins "After seeing the epic nature of those tracks, we believe that the man was unable to return to normal civilization and decided to end it all right there."

I'm going to get a pair of whippets so I can be cool like all the hardcore ski dudes around here. Fashion over function, duh! <br><br>If you're doing a tour where you won't need the stopping abilities of the whippets, why not just remove the pick, then you don't have to worry about impaling yourself. <br>

I appreciate the counterarguments from Lowell, Ron, and Corey. (By the way Ron, you know that I'm no gnarly climber, I'm really just a skier who climbs in order to ski.)<br><br>But I'm sticking to my beliefs regarding the advantages of Whippets. Most people really want one type of grip which works for the broadest range of snow conditions they might encounter on a trip, and that is certainly the Whippet. There appears to be no debate about the Whippets superiority in firm snow. But is there any hard evidence for the supposed superiority of the Claw in soft snow? Even in "soft snow" (meaning snow which is barely firm enough to require self-arrest grips, not very soft snow where grips are unnecessary), I think a properly devised, controlled test would reveal that the Whippets either match or outperform the Claw, due to their longer penetration depth and the perpendicular fin. That's just my guess, which could certainly be proven wrong. <br><br>But in my own use, by far the biggest advantage of the Whippet is its removability, which the Claw completely lacks. I actually install the Whippets on only a few of my trips (although I carry them on most), and even then they are installed for only a small fraction of the total distance climbed/skied. My real reason for this may seem strange to some, but I just hate having any sharp objects dangling from my wrists as I wipe sweat from my brow. (Obviously I want to reduce impalement hazard while skiing, too.)<br><br>Lowell, I think you may have misunderstood the source of my praise for McLean's design. Although Paul Ramer was certainly much more innovative overall than McLean is, the mechanical ingenuity of the removable Whippet design (not merely its hard snow performance) is what really outclasses the Claw. As an experimental physicist, I've designed and machined a broad variety of mechanical components, and the simplicity and elegance of the Whippet design continues to impress me.<br><br>Amar<br>

Points well taken, Amar.  Thanks for clarifying your thoughts about the whippet.<br><br>I never remove the picks on my whippets. I've gotten used to skiing with self arrest picks and I've never gouged myself. Interestingly, Andrew McLean has said in internet posts that he also never removes the picks, in order to become accustomed to their presence. Over the years, I've accumulated several different sets of ski poles and if I'm going powder skiing, where an arrest grip is unnecessary, I just take the pair without the grips.<br><br>One thing to be aware of with whippets is that, because of the removable pick, you must put your hand through the wrist strap in order to use them for self arrest. If you don't the pick can rip out of the handle under load. This is not the case with Ramer claws.<br><br>If anyone has bought Ramer-style claw handles from Life-Link, you should be aware that some have been shipped with an assembly error. The pole strap is secured by a camming buckle that is screwed onto the top of the handle. On some handles I bought from Life-Link this winter, the buckles were installed with the hinge toward the claw pick, rather than toward the user's hand. As a result, if you tug upward on the strap--for example if you lose your grip on the pole or it snags on something--the camming buckle opens immediately and the strap comes loose. It's inadvertently a quick-release system.<br><br>The buckle should be installed with the hinge toward the user's hand so you can tug on it without the buckle releasing.  If you have a pair of mis-assembled handles, you can easily unscrew the buckle and turn it around. I told Tim Kelley at Life-Link about this and he confirmed that it was a production error and will be fixed. Apparently, since Paul Ramer died, there was some confusion about how his invention was supposed to be used.<br><br>Corey mentioned holding the Ramer claw on the top with the pick pointing back. I like to hold it with the pick forward, which Chouinard calls the "cane position" for holding an ice axe. Here's a picture of my brother using this techique to good effect:<br><br>www.alpenglow.org/themes/subalpine/cd-30...nite-ck-crampon.html

I also like that hand position with the claws, Lowell, especially when hiking out (downhill) with a load.<br>Also noteworthy in your picture is the "Skoog Inspired Optimum for Bulshwhacking Ski Carry". with a 'biner through the ski tips it cuts through brush like a knife through butter.

With just a little bit of padding, the old Ramer claws (and possibly the new ones?) make good emergency crutches. I vaguely remember one of his catalogs touting them in this way. He was masterful at designing multi-use gear.

Question for Claw/Whippet users: Do you use two claws/whippets or just one?

I'd like to throw a few thoughts of my own into the mix...<br><br>In soft snow conditions where the whippet is less useful, I don't feel the need for a self arrest device.<br><br>More than anything else, I use them for climbing, and I use two. Unless I'm really pushing to do something stupid/insane, I feel like I should be able to climb anything I want to ski with nothing more than whippets. To this end, I have two because they're really nice for use in a dagger position on steep snow. I generally take an ice ax if I expect to climb ice, or just for the sake of insurance should something go wrong travelling a glacier.<br><br>I've never used the Ramer grips, but when I want something for security, I want it to be metal. <br><br>Lowell, I think you're right about using the wrist straps for someone holding the whippet like a normal pole. There are exceptions, though. If I'm climbing a steep snow slope where I could slip, but there's no real exposure to hazards below, I tend to make my steps fast and careless, and when one of my steps fails to hold, I fall on the whippet holding it across the top. Then I return to rapid fire steps without further adieu. I also like to use them like a cane like Corey mentioned, and in that case it's very natural to plant the whippet holding it by the top.<br><br>Just for the sake of contradicting Amar (experimental physicists nitpick each other to no end, it's part of the job), I would like to point out I often use a whippet to scratch my face during a climb, it gets itchy from sweat, and I tend to smudge sweat and sunscreen onto everything using my grubby fingers.<br><br>Finally, I ski with whippets pointed away from my body, and no wrist straps. I've never had a close call with stabbing myself, but I don't know if I rip it up like Sam. Furthermore, it's better than running with scissors!<br><br>Do whatever makes you feel safe and lets you have fun.

Holding the handle too as you wipe the sweat off of your forehead would help prevent any damage

I agree with sky. The whippet for me is the better tool for climbing steeper/firmer snow (most prevelent in spring) and during the ski down the whippet has very little value for me. If I am uncomfortable enough to want to use the whippet during a fall then I shouldn't be skiing it. The whippet combined with crampons is a very nice combination for fast movement over steeper terrain. I am more dependant on my skis arresting my fall than either the claw or whippet. I've never had any close calls with puncturing myself, but I have broken the poles top and bottoms several times while falling over logs, avi debris, and other obstacles (yep, real hard ones to mis )

Do any snowboarders or splitboarders here use whippets or claws?

Split headers ;D

I've never had a close call with stabbing myself, but I don't know if I rip it up like Sam. Furthermore, it's better than running with scissors!

<br> ;D ...oh, please!<br><br>Also have to agree with the fact that I've never had to use the whippet to arrest a skiing fall.  I see it primarily as a value while climbing steeps.  Of course if I ever was careening down a slope and left with a choice of a). continue falling and die, or b). use my whippet and maybe slow myself down...<br>I'll choose "b" over 50% of the time .<br><br>whippet! whippet good.

On thing not mentioned yet is the value of self-arrest grips for steep skinning. Many times I've skinned up a slope steep enough to touch the snow with my uphill hand while bending over only slightly. Placing the arrest pick with the uphill hand adds a lot of security in this situation. This is probably the most frequent use I've made of self-arrest grips. I've never used them to stop a serious fall. In the softish snow conditions where I typically do steep skinning, the claw definitely holds better than the whippet.<br><br>But, like I said before, both the whippet and claw are useful. This discussion has demonstrated how we often assume that gear we haven't used is inferior to the stuff we know. <br>

I like that bit about assuming other gear is inferior. It's a defense mechanism, I have to believe I have the good stuff so I can save my cash for things like food.

Username (Justin) - I LOVE my whippet when snowboarding. It's a pole for balance on the ascent, and an adequate ice axe when it gets steep. AND because it goes on the pack when descending, I don't fear stabbing myself, but while skiing...<br><br>I've watched a freind slide down a couloir in the Sierra - a really bad fall - tumbling and rolling and the only thing that stopped him was his whippet. If he didn't have it he would probably still be sliding. After seeing this, I'll always ski with my whippet out - like savaiusini - the alternative would stink.

Larry

I really love my Ramer self arrest grips also, but I too made some modifications. For me the Ramer lettering on the grip and on the Ramer alpine style grips easily wore holes through my wool mitts. One feature not well thought out, a sacrifice to the marketing at the time.<br><br>I have used them in just about every position imaginable, such as a high dagger position or low dagger position (equivalent to ice axe positions). However, I have to admit that these were not in blue ice conditions. Given their utility across a pretty wide range of snow conditions, I have never felt unsafe using them or taking a fall with them. It is nice not to have still one more thing to deal with during a descent. I too am a skier who prefers to climb for the ski rather than the reverse. (That is, when I am on a ski trip.)<br><br>The wonderfull platform they give to the palm when using them as short walking sticks is amazing relief on long descents where one can take significant weight off of the legs (or more importantly the impact on the knees). Kind of like stilts that can launch one over low obsticles or assist in extra long steps down.<br><br>I've had these poles with several types of grips and I have gone through great pains to keep them functional. A couple of tube breaks replaced with new aluminum tubing and a hell of a time finding replacement baskets this year after my hard claw baskets bit it last summer! Gosh I am really going to miss those hard claws absolutely brilliant!<br><br>These grips also are great for bushwacking and hook branches, roots, whatever. But then so may the whippets.<br><br>Alan

I would just like to inform everybody that as of today, I am as cool a skier as Sky, Jason, Amar, and the rest of the whippet-wielding elitist snobs. ;D<br><br>I looked at the Claw and it seems like it's so short it won't be of much use. That, and plastic is weaker than metal.

Love my claws (plural), shortened up and turned backwards while climbing, cane grip sorta thing. A friend glued some 1/4" neoprene pads on top of his and swears by it. Knuckel guard is usefull when booting up steep snow, mud , heather etc. I've never whipped it, so can't compare.

I know this thread was close to dead, but this is relevant:<br>Phil H's TR on the Baker Coleman-Deming trip (see April TR's) mentions "unsolicited advice - remove whipit before descending". I saw his stitches yesterday - a nice curved line below his right collar bone, a bit close to the neck for (my) comfort. Apparently it didn't bleed all that much, but was a pretty deep cut...<br>