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Topic: Heli bombing near Steven's Pass (Read 2502 times)
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Jon Garrison
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Wow.
Heli dropping big charges on Rooster Comb/Cone? Thurs 3/26/09 AM. Nothing really moved until the second round, then a HUGE one let go on the East most peak on that ridge. this crown looked as big as the bird or bigger, but it was hard to judge scale from the top of Tye Mill.
They seemed to bomb all of the lines I have ever hit over there, kind of bittersweet to watch.
Heard a rumor of HD video, anyone got a connection?
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P3230013.jpg (46.18 KB, 480x640 - viewed 909 times.)
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« Last Edit: 03/26/09, 09:56 PM by Jon Garrison »
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RonL
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Wow, that was impressive. Thanks for the links and Pics.
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Marcus
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Somebody help me out -- where is that with respect to the pass? I don't recognize it...
And why were they bombing? Is it above the resort? Over Big Chief or something?
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brownc9
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Out of bounds over the backside, above the power lines, and the Jupiter chair. An area frequented by non-beacon wearing snowboarders bootpacking to their armpits... gotta keep it safe!
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Jon Garrison
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Out of bounds... An area frequented by non-beacon wearing snowboarders bootpacking to their armpits... gotta keep it safe!
I am pretty sure that:
A) No one would pay for heli time to control avalanches to protect recreational skiers- this was about protecting those power line towers. (I am not saying that is unreasonable, just that it was not about the ski area at all.)
B) The sidecountry at Stevens and every other Northwest ski area I have been to is overrun by boarders AND skiers with inadequate gear or training.
C) That 95% of all the people skiing/boarding WITH beacons at ski areas are not prepared to use them, have no idea how to shovel or probe properly, and lose their friends in the woods regularly. I have been guilty of this plenty in the past, sliding to a stop at the chair with that mix of elation and worry that so-and-so isn't down yet. Since transitioning to a more backcountry ski based focus, the whole "no friends on a powder day" mindset at resorts has been scaring the hell out of me.
D) I am very thankful to Ken for the link!
E) That I am on both bootpacks and skintracks with skiers and boarders more often than my employers would like; with the exception of the lines very close to lifts, everyone uses the most efficient ascent method. The further away from the lifts, the less anyone cares what you are sliding on.
Sorry if I seem defensive, but I recently ran into an army of sidestepping skiers giving people grief on what is almost always a bootpack set by skiers and boarders (different location.) As a splitboarder, I get how often a skintrack is preferable to a bootpack, but sidestepping uphill more than 15ft? Getting uppity about ascent methods INbounds? Seems crazy.
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« Last Edit: 04/01/09, 05:24 PM by Jon Garrison »
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Jon Garrison
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I think it is the same area.
They had the entire backside closed for lift served all morning, and I assumed the Nordic center was blocked off also. The helicopter was flying back towards the Nordic center, maybe based from there?
They seemed to only bomb the stuff draining towards the backside lifts, so it would be fairly unlikely anyone would be camped that close to the resort; my lady and I have talked about doing a quick overnight by the lake for a while. For what it is worth, I would not think of camping under any of that, especially given those conditions.
I think they have done this for a few years, and after having a tower mashed last year I am sure they are trying to be proactive. I am on the fence- I don't want to be blown to bits while touring, and for sure didn't like seeing those lines get ruined, but I cannot imagine how much it cost them to fill up a snowcat full of high voltage electricians and tower repairmen in the middle of the scariest avy cycle in years, and repair those things in a blizzard! Especially since I am probably using that electricity now...
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Lowell_Skoog
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I'm sure they took reasonable and appropriate precautions. It's just interesting (in a perverse sort of way) to consider how backcountry skiers could have confounded them. Here's the route that wolfs asked about:
Has anyone ever tried a circle route in the Stevens area that involves "the other backside", specifically by dropping down either Cowboy or the powerlines to the north fork of Tunnel Ck, ascending it to the saddle near Swimming Deer, contouring to Josephine, then exiting to Mill Valley via the approx PCT route as in Kirkendall? If so any tips & tricks?
This route sneaks around to Josephine Lake from behind, not entering Mill Creek until it passes right under the blast zone near Lake Susan Jane. The odds that somebody would ski this route on the very day that helicopter bombing was occurring, and would wander into the blast zone without knowing what was about to happen, is small. But if they did, I don't think there's any way the avalanche control people would know they were coming. It makes you pause.
It reminds me of an incident that happened to me a few years ago:
"Friendly Fire at Washington Pass".
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Jon Garrison
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Lowell
Scary! And maybe more so because about 90% of my current daydreaming is about this years North Cascades Highway opening...
I also wonder if we are afraid to press this because the loss of access is such a likely outcome. IIRC there are some similar issues at Hood.
I was driving up to go touring at Steven's a few years ago, a week or two after they closed the lifts, and just after the Tunnel creek hairpin I saw an "Oversized Load" sign on a car. Naturally I stomped on the gas to get around whatever doublewide was getting in my way, and as I rounded the next corner I passed a TANK! ON the highway!
I skied anyway, it was a nice sunny day and I just assumed the tank was being put away for the year... I am super conservative about snow stability but I guess a bit casual about being blown to bits by WSDOT?
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Lowell_Skoog
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Scary! And maybe more so because about 90% of my current daydreaming is about this years North Cascades Highway opening...
I also wonder if we are afraid to press this because the loss of access is such a likely outcome.
Exactly. I didn't press the issue in 1997 and I wouldn't now either. I wrote my rec.skiing.backcountry post to place the responsibility for caution on the skier.
It does make me wonder though... If the recent Stevens Pass control work was done to protect power lines (and not skiers), were the people in the helicopter ski patrollers (who are more likely to think like backcountry skiers) or were they somebody else? Interesting question...
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« Last Edit: 04/02/09, 08:38 AM by Lowell_Skoog »
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Jon Garrison
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I think I overheard some jealousy from the patrollers on the ground that so-and-so was in the bird, but I doubt that the possibility of someone touring in from anywhere but "their" parking lots was even considered! Everyone I was around was focused on the bird and the bombs.
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Alan Brunelle
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I am pretty sure that:
A) No one would pay for heli time to control avalanches to protect recreational skiers- this was about protecting those power line towers. (I am not saying that is unreasonable, just that it was not about the ski area at all.)
I don't agree with that statement. Those powerline towers are very robust, well situated and in general well protected where they are exposed to avalanches. If they bombed that area for that they would be bombing the whole rest of the corridor constantly and they do not. In any case that slope doesn't discharge anywhere near a tower, the towers in that locale are actually in-bounds and up on a hill and cannot be reached by any runnout from what was shown.
Lowell is correct about the location.
Fact is those slopes are traversed often, but they also can dump their loads pretty darn close to the in bounds on the south boundary. That is where the Outer Limits trail is and in fact there is way more side country travel by resort skiers just outside the resort boundary that take people even closer to the runouts. The fact is there is a very powerful runnout zone that crosses Outer Limits right at the haripin lower down. My guess that the traverses you see high up on that slope are from more experienced travelers, however there are always some crazies from the resort.
So logic would dictate it was Stevens doing the bombing.
This is an area I had planned to tour into this winter with my son. Early season weather and other demands have put that off, but I wanted to do a lifted serve backcountry trip that bypassed Josephine, followed the ridges just north and east and see how far we could get towards Jim Hill Mtn. The intent would be to go as far as we could, ski the favorable slopes on route and when we decided we had enough ski down to the x-country trails and call for a lift from my wife.
We did take a nice tour of the Grace Lakes area last weekend though. I have mixed feelings about the resort developing that area.
Alan
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Alan Brunelle
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I think I overheard some jealousy from the patrollers on the ground that so-and-so was in the bird, but I doubt that the possibility of someone touring in from anywhere but "their" parking lots was even considered! Everyone I was around was focused on the bird and the bombs.
I would get the facts before making assumptions that the actions were cavalier. As I said in my earlier post. that slope that was charged will not affect powerlines, so how are you so sure it was the power company. How do you know that if it was that they hadn't consulted with the head of Stevens patrol (just because a few patrollers may not have been in the know doesn't mean nothing was done to figure out who might be in the area). there are multiple cat tracks up into Grace Lakes and around the back side of the that hill they bombed for reasons of US2 avi control. There are also signs warning backcountry travelers that control takes place in those areas.
Also ski patrol gets over into those areas and from a helocopter they probably had a hell of a good look as to what was going on, cleared the area ahead of time and then acted. If they did the work at 8AM it is very unlikely anyone could have accessed the slope at that time, unless they entered the day before.
Don't make assumptions that some group had ill will in these actions.
Alan
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Jon Garrison
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Alan
I am sorry if I was unclear on some things you assume about my comments. Please do not read any accusation of ill will into my posts.
I did not assert that the bombing was cavalier, only that the possibility of someone touring in from somewhere _other_ than the resort/Nordic center was probably not considered. What do I know, I am just some guy on the internet! I do know that it lasted until ten AM, and that they obviously knew what they were doing and I assumed they acted in good faith.
I did not notice this year, and I don't know about actual, active control, but the power company does, in FACT, use the helicopter to check out the corridor in the winter.
As to the why, every time they have done this the rumor has been that it was a joint effort with the ski area and power company. That is what I was told by patrol this year and also in the past. If my eavesdropping was accurate there was at least one patroller in the bird. I am aware that patrol is usually busy doing their good work and are not in charge of PR, budget, or administration and may have no real idea who is paying. But I still doubt that Harbor Properties laid out any cash for helicopter fuel.
I also know that one tower at least was wrecked last year , and that I have seen avy debris climb up bigger hills than the ones the towers under that slope are on (Cutthroat Pass for instance)
Facts? Neither of us has them. Both of us are too lazy, busy, or obsessed with skiing to actually call Stevens and ask, but seriously? Is helicopter based control work done anywhere else? (I really don't know, but I doubt it.)
Anyway, the ONLY interesting part of this discussion for me is whether anyone would be back there from some other starting point. I spend some time out there, and have not seen anyone tour in from elsewhere. And finally,
My guess that the traverses you see high up on that slope are from more experienced travelers, however there are always some crazies from the resort.
Those are the same groups in my personal experience. In my ill-informed, some-guy-on-the-internet opinion, the ones who traverse under that wind loaded ridge without checking it out from above are the crazies. There is some awesome terrain up there but I always struggle with how to get to it safely, and gather knowledge about it at the same time.
And no one has answered the real question I had when I started this topic- Rooster COMB, as I have always thought, or CONE, as I saw written recently?
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Lowell_Skoog
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Is helicopter based control work done anywhere else? (I really don't know, but I doubt it.)
If my memory serves me correctly, there was a controversy a few years ago when the Crystal Mountain ski patrol used a helicopter to do some control work along the ridge that forms the Mount Rainier National Park boundary. They were so successful that they started a slide (I think they call that path "Big Bertha") that ran to 410 and buried the highway and continued over the White River entrance road. The Park Service (or was it the Highway Department?) wasn't too happy about it.
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CookieMonster
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C) That 95% of all the people skiing/boarding WITH beacons at ski areas are not prepared to use them, have no idea how to shovel or probe properly, and lose their friends in the woods regularly.
So how do you use a beacon properly? How do you probe properly? How do you shovel properly? In your own words.
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Alan Brunelle
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Alan
I am sorry if I was unclear on some things you assume about my comments. Please do not read any accusation of ill will into my posts.
Jon,
No need to apologize. I do see your point. I just know where that first slide was and saw a logical reason for releasing it. Something that others replying to the thread did not seem clear about.
Partly I was reacting to the specific location of that large triggered slide, the fact that we saw it last week and the fact that that particular slope does not involve the towers. The power lines from the east with towers on that burn slope SE of the lift areas go up the hill to towers that are directly on the ski area trails and then through the small pass area. The movie is from a hill that is further to the east and does not threaten those towers.
As far as the second half of the video, I couldn't figure out where those slopes were, but I was guessing that they were in the Grace Lakes area along the Barrier. Why would they do those slopes? Well avalanche control has cat tracks that go up and through that area to access slopes just above US2, so maybe they were protecting their own people and that access route.
I have no clue who payed for the helicopter, it may have been the power company (seems like a good guess), but my guess is that they hit the mountain in the first part of the video under request of Stevens. To protect the area around Outer Limits. Having a patrol guy in the chopper while they do their work so close to a populated recreation area makes good sense. Elsewhere it is probably unnecessary.
On the other hand, to be cynical, maybe they were working in necessary areas and just for the heck of it they dropped the charge for the fun of it. Seems improbable with so many people observing.
Regarding backcountry users in the area. My son and I came across signs along the barrier and also in areas of Grace Lakes with clear warnings about artillery fire in the area. The tanks fire into the barrier and I think they actually set off that huge slide last year that buried the highway for several days last year. This is essentially the same area as where people do the descent from Cowboy Mt. to the hairpin. I have photos of the signs and I will post some when I get the chance. The most threatening sign stated that as a backcountry traveler, you are about to enter an avalanche control area which affect US2. If you release a slide that impacts the Highway or causes damages, etc. you will be financially responsible.
I wonder if they have signs along the power line right of way?
Alan
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Jon Garrison
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So how do you use a beacon properly? How do you probe properly? How do you shovel properly? In your own words.
Oh man... I was(am) trying to be humble and honest and mentioned a few times that I am certainly no expert. If anything I am probably even more culpable in those situations because I do read about it a bit and practice occasionally, and still tour the sidecountry more casually and with friends that don't have the holy avy gear trinity. Even when I am totally away from the lifts, I don't always do all I should and I hope I did not come off sounding arrogant.
In any case, if you didn't mean to go there, as it were (In my own words?) Here are my answers:
1 Hopefully in a rational grid, probably in an insane panic following the arrows and remembering the whole flux line thing and with more calmish panic.
2 All I know is that I have heard the probe is more efficient than just the beacon, I can get mine out fast but I always worry that I will not know the difference between a tree or a rock or my friend, and I have been very lucky not to have to.
3 Downhill. Hopefully in a organized tiered system, but if it's that deep in coastal snow...
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Joedabaker
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If my memory serves me correctly, there was a controversy a few years ago when the Crystal Mountain ski patrol used a helicopter to do some control work along the ridge that forms the Mount Rainier National Park boundary. They were so successful that they started a slide (I think they call that path "Big Bertha") that ran to 410 and buried the highway and continued over the White River entrance road. The Park Service (or was it the Highway Department?) wasn't too happy about it.
Lowell, Big Bertha slide actually came off Crystal Peak's west face, I doubt Crystal Patrol was involved in that slide.
Come to think of it, it MAY have been WSDOT, that did that since there is a history of slides in that area and they wanted to control it? Another rumor started.
On Feb 22nd 1956 the path slid twice, depositing debris 13' high and 1000 yards wide on Sunrise road. A slide crossed both 410 and Sunrise roads on Feb 22nd 1967 road and three elk were found in the debris. And there are several other dates that have the slide hitting 410 besides 1998-99 slide that crossed both highways. Don't ski it on Feb 22nd is a good lesson.
It made a nice ski run, I got caught unexpectedly from behind in a slow wet slide in the spring many years ago in Big Bertha. It was scary, but fortunately stopped before it got ugly. We skied to the bottom and rollerbladed with skis on our packs down the closed road to Crystal's access road. That would have been a great trip report if TAY was around.
I know that for some reason the Park does not want any bombing on Kempers, that is why it is permanently closed.
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If it's called common sense, why isn't it more common?
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Jon Garrison
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...
As far as the second half of the video, I couldn't figure out where those slopes were, but I was guessing that they were in the Grace Lakes area along the Barrier. Why would they do those slopes?
On the other hand, to be cynical, maybe they were working in necessary areas and just for the heck of it they dropped the charge for the fun of it. Seems improbable with so many people observing.
I wonder if they have signs along the power line right of way?
Alan
I haven't seen any signage out there, it always seems odd there is nothing, not even DO NOT TOUCH on the towers!
The second half of the video is the rest of the ridge, I am 96% certain. I have been staring at it a lot for years and especially so lately, and watched the whole thing from the top of Tye/Jupiter chairs. They methodically bombed from end to end a couple of times, for maybe more than an hour.
The video, while awesome and much appreciated, is not sequential. They hit a bunch of spots with not that much sliding before the first one on the video, which we call the hanging snowfield. After that they went back left to right (E to W) and got better results, as if they had found the particular aspect that was sensitive.
The second to last one at about 2:12 right before an abrupt edit shows my favorite, kinda safe non-cliff but tight chute line through the middle cliff band (as we call it.)
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Lowell_Skoog
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Lowell, Big Bertha slide actually came off Crystal Peak's west face, I doubt Crystal Patrol was involved in that slide.
Come to think of it, it MAY have been WSDOT, that did that since there is a history of slides in that area and they wanted to control it? Another rumor started.
Yeah, it was a rumor when I heard it, and I probably mangled it even worse.
Like they say, the best way to get information on the Internet is not to ask a question, but to post the wrong information. 
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CookieMonster
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I think the Big Bertha start zone is at: 46.908177,-121.523809 ( you can enter these values into the search box at maps.google.com ).
For jon_garrison: my questions were rhetorical.
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Alan Brunelle
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I said that I would post the photos of the warning signs that I saw near Stevens.
These were taken on a lift-served side tour of Grace Lakes that I did with my son a couple of weeks ago.
Still wonder if there are any posted near the power lines South of the ski area.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3414/3411448243_9112fe80c5.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3337/3411448223_af1ba21e0d.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3398/3411448217_fbd4668d17.jpg?v=0
The last two photos are on a cat track that traverses down to the main lake, passes it to the north and then climbs over the south end of the ridge that presumably heads over to the steep slopes just above the highway.
Fact is, where the sign is is nowhere any terrain that could affect the highway. The slides would travel down to the flat are around the lake, but the sign also implies that you can travel there, but at your risk.
A beautiful area, great for snowshoeing and light touring on skis.
Alan
Alan
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« Last Edit: 04/04/09, 10:00 AM by BigSnow »
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