December 13/08-Blueberry Chutes-Small slab ride

Wow -- glad you're okay.

To my amazement there we’re no reactions. People just kept skiing  like nothing  happened.

It seems like there's more and more of this attitude, with respect to "small" slides, which strikes me as very dangerous.  Looking at a weak early season snowpack, following a deadly year with a weak early season snowpack, I'm afraid we're set up to repeat it, especially as "first storm" enthusiasm has folks hitting steep lines with little regard for the consequences.

Anyway, as I said, glad you got lucky and came out well.

you didn't mention if your group dug any pits or tested the snowpack before skiing....i'm just curious if y'all took a up close look at the snow. 

No but we did some warm up laps on easier slopes just to get a feel for the snow.But in this incident the fun meter was way to high.It all started after the brother and I skied our third lap,we could feel the crust under the storm snow.Some people we knew were calling our names all stoked for the day.Andy and I have a uniqe relationship as brothers,we have been in the mountains together all our lives growing up with our family in british columbia.But I thought it would be cool to ski with this group,I got caught up in the excitement.Decision time?Normally we would calmly go the safe route and tour all the way around,constantely accessing the terrain,but in this case we followed the cattle.So andy and I chose to ski the steepest bluebery chutes.Andy left chute,and me the right.
So I cautiously entered the chute crap as I ride the sluff,then again anouther sluff narrowly misses me.So I make it through!
Now Andy is set to go on the left chute.I yell up as loud as I can do one turn and ski cut the F out of there.To my horror he does not head my warning and continues to ski,his fun meter was way up and by the fourth turn he is fighting to carve left in a full on gs turn,to no avail.Quickly I go into search mode.Thankfully Andy is okay.Andy'S SKIS ARE GONE.To my amazement a few people helped briefley look for his skis.I did not see one person go into search mode.So after what seemed like an hour or so I luckily found both my brothers skis,which were taken for a thousand foot ride.The slide was at least 100 feet wide,and the stuchwall was at least a foot deep,basically storm snow on top of the crust ,that ran more than a thousand feet.I would say a size 2.What really shocked me is how everyone just kept touring in the same area up and down like nothing happend.There is definately a different breed of outdoor folks out there these days!

Thanks for the details -- it's easy to get caught up in that enthusiasm.  Glad you both made it out okay and I'm disappointed that the people out there reacted as they did.  That's a bigger slide than I'd pictured from the first description.  Lucky indeed.

I'm glad you and Andy are ok Mike.  Thanks for the beta.  I've decide I'll probably stick closer to home and ski trees.  Perhaps monitor the situation from the keyboard fwiw - my two concerns:

1-  Wind slab and storm snow on the W/S

2.  Skiing terrain with which I'm not familiar after a storm event.

Otherwise - will tour up the Coquihalla

author=tim_place link=topic=11526.msg47922#msg47922 date=1229545611]Ok, ok that sounds shi**y.  But you just don't see that nonsense after the season gets going.

I beg to differ -- you see that nonsense year 'round, it's just not quite so concentrated.  It's not like the snow at Snoqualmie induces good decision making out of the blue, though perhaps the "cattle" effect is somewhat reduced.

Thanks for writing up your experience!

Yea, I gotta disagree with you also Tim, the baker slackcountry seems like it's a zoo year round, at least when it's bluebird and a weekend, similar to the slackcountry around other ski areas.  I've seen the stuff you're talking about in March.  Although, like you say, I'm sure the fact that you guys are usually the 1st within the immediate area to have a base creates an influx of powder-starved Seattlites, Canadians, Mongolians, Latvians, etc! 

If my memory serves me correctly, it does seem that the Blueberry chutes have a recent history of recurrent early season slides...

Thanks for posting.  It reminds me why I prefer traveling in small groups in slightly more remote areas, even if the lure of easy access powder is sometimes too great to pass up.  ;D

One of my regular ski buddies, who can really crank, has told me a couple of times:  "I think I can ski out of any avalanche I get caught in."    ???
Check the latest issue of Backcountry Magazine and you'll see that view debunked in the article on "Avalanche Mythbusters".

Thanks for cleaning it out Mr. Traslin!! Next time give it a proper ski cut. Slackcountry is just going to get more crowded, I think everyone's getting a splitboard for Christmas this year.

author=tim_place link=topic=11526.msg47922#msg47922 date=1229545611]
We pray daily for more snow at Snoqualmie.

So do we.

Very glad you're ok, Atraslin.

author=telemack link=topic=11526.msg47929#msg47929 date=1229555851">
One of my regular ski buddies, who can really crank, has told me a couple of times:  "I think I can ski out of any avalanche I get caught in."    ???

some of the people who contributed to these statistics may have thought the same way:

"Avalanche Accidents – World Stats:

During the 2007/2008 season, the USA continued to be a world leader in the number of avalanche fatalities with 36 (4 of these occurred in California).  1 out of 4 deaths from avalanches which occur around the world take place in the United States and usually on public land.

USA                36
Austria           29
France            29
Canada          18
Italy               17
Switzerland    11
Others
Combined       17
Total               157 "

(taken from Mt. Shasta Avalanche Center bulletin)

glad u guys are ok.

Similar conditions to the Nov. 25 slide documented at Crystal mtn, 2006. I was  a bit too close to that one & had to come back for a ski several weeks later. My partner was very fortunate to come out of an up-side down full burial but the skis didn't surface til next spring. Even with ski tracks 125 feet to our right and 150 feet left, there were snotty isolated slabs out there. Learned about "complacency" and trusting the tracks of others. This year isn't giving me a lot of confidence either, it's a snowpack that needs close attention and vigilance. Just my .02$

I was up on Saturday also and I witnessed the witless boot pack towards the blueberry chutes.  I saw a lot of people without packs, so I can only assume they had no beacons.  Probably why no one went into search mode.  Hopefully the new snow keeps some of them between the ropes.  Glad you made it out okay. 

author=telemack link=topic=11526.msg47929#msg47929 date=1229555851]
One of my regular ski buddies, who can really crank, has told me a couple of times:  "I think I can ski out of any avalanche I get caught in."    ???

Really, this guy (or girl) must be pretty stupid to put forward such an obviously absurd statement.  It is suprising that someone who has spent enough time on the snow to "really crank" would have such a limited understanding of the irresistible dynamics of avalanches.
Either this person is delusional and dangerous

                     OR

you are completely misrepresenting this persons statements and should set the record straight.

I suspect that with just a little research, one could determin who your regular ski buddies are and presume to whom you are referring.  He (or she) may not appreciate your gross distortion of their comments.

Just a thought. ;)

i wasnt there so i dont know exactly what happened but my roommate came home and told stories of helping two brothers, (one of which caused a slide where his brother had just told him not to ski), dig out one of them and look for his skis.. regardless of the cattle or whatever you are always responsible for what you ski and for the people below you.. whether you agree with their line of ascent or not.. ive met a few idiots out on the blueberry side but for the most part people are pretty aware of conditions and the people around them.. im not trying to start a rucus but there is often more sides to a story.. and id like to think people were there to help and did pay attention to the situation..

Were there only a correlation between skills snow sliding and knowledge of how snow slides......theres no correlation between being a ripper and being avy savvy. But I wouldn't call people out I didn't know like that unless I was on the internet or something. Wait, where are we?

BTW Tim I did 7 years in Whatcom County, with a Baker Pass and not much else to my name, and I ain't never heard of no Seattle chutes.

In the avalanche and ski guide courses I have taken.I have never been told to stick together and and ski tour up an avalanche slope.(one at a time,spaced out)especially in a storm cycle.People were making mistakes,me included,but I did not think anyone was an idiot(maybe more experienced versus less experienced)or misguided with good intentions.Example a large group of people I knew were close to the action  had no idea the incident happend untill my brother ran into them at seymour mountain the other day!(FUN METER)The last time I saw that many people on a slope was cat skiing but only after the snow had plenty of time to settle.A lapse in judgement is all it takes,and we got lucky this time.I have turned around in less than adequate conditions on ski climbs in the mount logan and mount waddington area.And the one guy on logan thought it was an ice hockey match and wanted to move on regardless of the avalanche conditions!

author=prestonf link=topic=11526.msg47927#msg47927 date=1229554574]
Thanks for writing up your experience!
 

If my memory serves me correctly, it does seem that the Blueberry chutes have a recent history of recurrent early season slides...

Thanks for posting.  It reminds me why I prefer traveling in small groups in slightly more remote areas, even if the lure of easy access powder is sometimes too great to pass up.  ;D

I must admit that I have had a close call there a few years back. It was a great learning experience, hopefully you can learn from your mistakes altraslin.

threads from TAY from that day
http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboarding/trip_reports/index.php?topic=3394.0

http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboarding/trip_reports/index.php?topic=3330.0

Thanks for the info!

author=rippy link=topic=11526.msg47960#msg47960 date=1229617534]
This year isn't giving me a lot of confidence either, it's a snowpack that needs close attention and vigilance. Just my .02$

Second that.

danhelmstadter, thanks for sharing.  Those are some sobering statistics.  I think this is a good reminder for everyone to dig their pits and read the snowpack.  The numbers of backcountry enthusiasts is going to keep growing...let's not let the Avalanche Death statistics do the same.

Glad you guys are okay.

i only read down to telemacks post and these are my thoughts, for what little they are worth;

it sounds like it was a a friggin' circus. not interested.
the crowds in that place have always felt scetchy to me.

"don't let the stupid people of this world influence your decisions"

telemack: fear the day that you have to dig your friend out.
it will happen with his/her attitude.

Not sure what to add to this conversation but as I spent several hrs one day many years ago digging my then girlfriend/roommate out of a avy and held her in my arms while awaiting body rescue/retrieval my heart rate goes up whenever issues like this are discussed
     Over the last ten years averages of 25 people per year have died in the United States (U.S.) (Page, Atkins, Shockley, & Yaron, 1999) from snow avalanches. In an analysis of avalanche accidents over 45 yrs Page et al., found that over 440 victims were killed in 324 incidents. Washington State due to its snow fall patterns and number of outdoor recreationalists has one of the highest rates of avalanche injury in the U.S. with 26 deaths since 1996 and nine deaths alone in the winter of 2007-2008 (Northwest Avalanche Center, 2008). Between 1980 and 1993, backcountry winter travelers such as skiers and mountaineers have comprised 93 percent of avalanche fatalities (Fredston, Fesler, & Tremper, 1994). From 1959 to 2004, 716 people died in avalanches in the U.S. with the average age of all victims 30 years, the youngest was 6 yrs old and the oldest, 67 yrs of age (McIntosh, Grissom, Olivares, Kim & Tremper, 2007).,
    This teaching of avoidance is one when individuals are explained the heuristic trap of thinking that knowledge alone can provide safety (Fredston et al.,1994). McCammon found a tendency for increased risk exposure when participants are exposed to some avalanche education with the thought that this small amount of knowledge especially in high use areas lended itself to increased risk taking behavior. McCammon (2002) found that 89% of backcountry snow recreation with backcountry winter travelers occurred in groups of two or more and that 58% occurred in groups of three or more. With the propensity for new folks to ski in higher use areas it seems logical that they would tend to participate in this behavior.This social communication in groups reflects the persuasion and decision making process as Rogers (1995) presents as part of the diffusion of an innovation.

    There has been a little bit of conversation in public health circles looking at avalanche injury and applying some educational models into current programs.


Fredston, D., Fesler, D. and Tremper, B. (1994). The human factor-lessons for avalanche
      Education [Electronic version]. Proceedings of the International Snow Science Workshop.
      Snowbird   UT. October 1994. 473-487.

McCammon, I.  (2002). Evidence of heuristic traps in recreational avalanche
      Accidents [Electronic version]. Proceedings of the International Snow Science Workshop.
      Penticton, BC Canada. Sept,30th –Oct. 4th, 2002 .

McIntosh, S. E., Grissom, C. K., Olivares, C. R., Kim, H. S., & Tremper, B. (2007). Cause of   
     death in avalanche fatalities [Electronic version]. Wilderness & Environmental Medicine,
     18(4), 293-297.

Page, C. E., Atkins, D., Shockley, L. W., & Yaron, M. (1999). Avalanche deaths in the United     
     States: A 45-year analysis [Electronic version]. Wilderness & Environmental Medicine, 10(3),
     146-151.

Rogers, E. M. (1995). Diffusion of Innovations. (4th ed.). New York: The Free Press.

author=coyote link=topic=11526.msg48419#msg48419 date=1230241443]

telemack: fear the day that you have to dig your friend out.
it will happen with his/her attitude.

My comment was actually not directed at a specific person;  I've set my own heuristic traps too.
Peace on Earth.

I couldn't figure out how to add photos to this site,so I have some shots from that day from club tread.I like to see some photos when I read a trip report.

http://www.clubtread.com/sforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=29217

Glad to see everyone's supportive attitude towards sharing our mistakes for the benefit of all.  Have a safe weekend in bounds - note the coming huge warm storm.

I'm curious about the exact type of avalanche that Andy was in.  Was it truly a slab or was it a sluff?  I'm interested because i was in the Baker slack country the next day (12/14) and dug a couple of pits (pit profile on snowpilot) that day and found very unconsolidated snow on the old crust.  Also, i saw sluffs all over the place but no slabs.  It would be very interesting if a slab happened there.

It was my first time to Baker slack country, so are Blueberry chutes the north facing shots below Table mtn?  I made a run in that area with a couple of guys i met up with after digging a hasty pit and deeming it safe on the less steep shots.  Sweet turns until i pulled my binding out of the ski!

I've been cross-country skiing for the last week here at home and even making some turns on the pipe line.  I don't like to go any farther than i have to to ski!

Glad your ok Andy!  Take care.

author=teledavid link=topic=11526.msg48475#msg48475 date=1230335663]
It was my first time to Baker slack country, so are Blueberry chutes the north facing shots below Table mtn?

Yes.

Andy seemed to hit the perfect pocket,that created an isolated wind slab(50degee slope)

Wind slab!  makes sense, thanks for getting back to me!