Judge OKs White Pass ski resort expansion

I am always glad to see more ski development.....

As much as I admire the Sierra Club, they should stay in California... this still could go to the wacky 9th Circuit Court (based in California of course).

seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews...s1stldwritethru.html

A sad day...

Another classic backcountry ski locale lost to mechanized 'wreckreation' that only a few can afford.

The most interesting thing about the Hogback development is that the area was formerly part of the Goat Rocks Wilderness and it was removed from the wilderness in 1984. This was done to get Rep. Sid Morrison (acting on behalf of the ski area) to support inclusion of the Cougar Lakes area in the Washington Wilderness Act. That's a remarkable precedent.

I have mixed feelings about this decision. White Pass is a beautiful area for the reasons that it is not overly developed. Having skied there twice over the last two years, my impression was that the snow was of better quality and I enjoyed the low-key environment. My other feeling was that the long, though scenic drive, and lack of much challenging terrain made it borderline worth-it. The resort could use a shot of more terrain and lifts, which of course would impact the scenery and habitat. Such is the dilemma of lift-served skiing.

The proposed plan will, with two lifts and a lodge in the meadow area of the approach to Hogback create a scene of alpine skiers where previously only those willing to tour were the recipients of a true natural place to ski with no machines in the picture. Now it will become something like a base area up in the pristine wilderness, so the ski company can have a product that will be marketable in the near future to a huge corporation and everyone will be able to make their retirement money off of the sale. The area has always been accesable to those with the spirit to enjoy it and now it will be thrown to the masses who have always been too lazy or too frightened to go there on their own.

I think that Washington is blessed with some great back country skiing, so why be so stingy about giving something up to lift served?

If the demand is there... folks willing to pay for lifts, then we should accommodate the demand.   Maybe Hogsback is not the right place... so where is a better location?

Wouldn't the new lifts give more access to even more back country?

Here is a trip report on Hogsback... nice pics:
www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...fefa514&topic=3379.0

Discussion at Tele-tips:
www.telemarktalk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php...1882ef3e937bfc48daba

Link to Record of Decision Documents Page:
www.fs.fed.us/r6/wenatchee/projects/white-pass/

http://yakimaherald.com/images/photos/2008/9/11/062707white_pass_expansion.jpg?086bc527c14d

Wouldn't the new lifts give more access to even more back country?

And then more lifts giving access to more lifts?
Larry, "why be so stingy "?

And yes a lot us myself included spend money at White pass to lift ski ,appreciate the homey feeling there and even take the one way ride and then skin out to appreciate a quieter place of untracked powder and a natural beauty. I think Filbro and G Vogt said it quite nicely. Knowing these guys who have shared a lot of thier local knowledge.Filbro I only know from this site but G Vogt is a friend.I'd hardly call them stingy.

The Hogsback you want isn't going to be the Hogsback you get.

Beyond the north face of the south cordillera of the complete Hogback cordillera there is only Shoe Lake with some small vert. The lifts will make the longer trek to the south cordillera shorter, but the bowl at Hogback down to Mirriam Lake and the steep 500' vert of Gunsight bowl will be spitting distance from the proposed lifts which will become lost to the hordes of resort boarders and skiers who will now jump into them with a minimum of ease. I hate to see a great secret stash go, but I will also make the best of the new situation. My take is one of those who love to ski untracked powder and have moved into the bc as a means to that end no matter how difficult the climb or the hike. The bottom line seems to be that for those who love this area and the steep bowls and faces of virgin pow there are probably two seasons left before it is changed forever.

I don't have as much at stake regarding White Pass/Hogsback as some of you others do.  So, my argument is simply to allow ski areas expand.  I appreciate your heartfelt arguments.

"....The Hogsback you want isn't going to be the Hogsback you get. ...."
Yea... I was a little disappointed as to how the lift access at Crystal's Northback worked out.  It wasn't quite what I expected.... bumped out to the max, esp. near the bottom chair.  However, I did catch some nice powder at Crystal North... I need to explore more of it out there.

The Installation of the Northback chair at Crystal killed that whole area.
I am weeping for you :'(

I've toured the Hogback quite a few times going back to the 80s. The terrain is pretty gentle as a cursory examination of a topo map shows. Nice for touring but I think people will find the new lift-served terrain boring. The shots into Miriam Creek? Kiss 'em goodbye. Yeah, I'm bitter about it. The removal of designated Wilderness for commercial development is a lousy precedent. Has it been done anywhere else yet?

The Installation of the Northback chair at Crystal killed that whole area.
I am weeping for you :'(

Yeah. "Northback Chair" creates a bitter taste - makes me need to spit.

I say "yes" to the development. White pass is a crowded mess and this will distribute the crowds (a little). There is really only a handfull of ski areas in Washington, yet there is more backcountry areas than one could even possibly enjoy in one lifetime. No use shedding tears over that small area, go find a new area to explore. Frankly i wish more ski areas were developed in the cascades, then there might be funding to keep more mountain roads open and driveable through the winter. The world is getting crowded, there is no use in overcrowding a ski area and not letting younger generations enjoy relatively uncrowded slopes as we all once did.

I think the expansion at WP is a blessing and should have happened many many years ago. The beauty of the backcountry is that it is all over the place. Ski resorts are only located where the there are lifts to serve an area. For all you backcountry skiers that think expansion is a negative I advise you to look in the mirror and tell yourself to stay off the chair lifts and get back to the backcountry. Thats all for now.

I think the expansion at WP is a blessing and should have happened many many years ago.  The beauty of the backcountry is that it is all over the place.  Ski resorts are only located where the there are lifts to serve an area.  For all you backcountry skiers that think expansion is a negative I advise you to look in the mirror and tell yourself to stay off the chair lifts and get back to the backcountry.  Thats all for now.   

I like ski areas as much as the next guy, but your argument is too simplistic.

Ski areas are located where plowed roads reach snow country. Those are the same places where the vast majority of mid-winter backcountry skiing takes place. Both lift skiers and backcountry skiers need road access to get close to where they ski. As a ski area expands from its base, the amount of backcountry terrain accessible from the same base shrinks. Eventually, the only way to reach the backcountry is to ride lifts to get there because it's too far to tour in a day trip.

I honestly don't have an opinion one way or another about the White Pass expansion, but let's be accurate about what's going on.

Hail to the preservationists!  There is only one way to "make more backcountry accessible":
don't develop it. 
I'll go even further and put this out there:  There should be absolutely no development or expansion of lift-served sking, anywhere, ever.  Kyle Miller is right about the Northway; picture Silver King with a lift to the top of it.  How about a lift to the top of Baker or St. Helens? 
Ansel Adams thought a tram to the top of Half Dome would be good for environmental awareness, and there are companies willing to build it!

Try reading this book for info. and perspective:
 
Clifford, Hal.  Downhill Slide:  Why the Corporate Ski Industry is Bad for Skiing, Ski     
     Towns, and the Environment.  San Francisco:  Sierra Club Books, 2002.

(Don't dis. the publisher until you have read it.)

I love endless lift laps too, and just bought my first season's pass since I worked at Crested Butte in 1975-6.  But the resort days are all blended together in my mind, and every BC day is a brilliant, distinct experience.  I expect to lift ski when I'm too old to skin, but I hope I won't be a cheerleader for more terrain no matter what the cost.

Frankly I am quite disturbed by the preservationist attitude of many backcountry users, and I hope I don’t offend anyone. I feel it is hypocritical and creates a double standard. I agree that preservation is great, that’s why we have wilderness boundaries and forestry and limited recreation regulations in place. And I believe for the most part they work. I personally, in my own dream-world, wish that all ski areas went out of business and all the roads stayed plowed, but unfortunately there is this thing called procreation, and everyone is participating in it. For those of you who have been around for a while and reaped the benefits for years of un-crowded ski areas should thank there lucky stars they had those days (even if they blurred together) and feel sorry for all the beginners out there waiting in 1-hour lift lines to enjoy the same experience we all enjoyed years ago. I do not agree with backountry users who find themselves in a position to say (in a nutshell) screw ski areas, I liked Northback (I am just using northback as an example) how it used to be, and you know what “there should be absolutely no development or expansion of lift served skiing, anywhere, ever”. I see this as backountry user elitism. “how about a lift to the top of baker or St. Helens?” Well, that’s why there are wilderness boundaries in place – to prevent this. I don’t know the entire story about how white pass got permits to extend into the expansion area, but they went through the long painstaking process to do it and succeeded, as of now. I am sure all our beloved ski areas expanded at some point in the past and I’m sure not everyone was pumped on it, but look at us now riding up the Green Valley chair with no regrets, perhaps that was someone elses “northback”.

This discussion parallels discussion on TAY in the past regarding snowmobiling. Many feel that snowmobiling should be banned in any area where there might be a backountry skier in hearing-distance. Yet these people who bash snowmo users drive their SUV’s all over wilderness areas with the masses all year long while pointing there finger and shaming those snowmobilers, who for instance, drive up white river road, yes all those 2 snowmobiles a day. Give me a break.

Well, that’s my opinion and everyone has one. I do respect all your positions on the issue, and enjoy these discussions.

Check out this video, very rarely do I get nervous watching ski/snowboard movies, but this is pretty narly.

I deliberately overstated a philosophical position. I'd actually like to see MORE backcountry users; unless people see the wonders of unspoiled nature, we will lose what little we have even faster.
Don't expect the resort skiing market to grow much more; it's been flattening for years, and the income and demographics of post-boomers
won't be conducive to it. One of the main reasons for resort expansion is to market real estate and vacation packages.
Again, check out the book. There are many negative consequences of ski development; it is not elitist to point this out.

Telemack ,When all skiing was still backcountry skiing the elitists were those riding new fangled chairs. Think Squaw and Sun valley ,being promoted with lots of stars and starlets. And imagine paying for preferred parking now that could be called elitist.
I'm not immune from this either as when my wife got her hand kissed by Stien Erickson at Deer valley a few years ago.!
Still on any given day I'd rather be skinning up in wild terrain away from the Elitists.

dirtbag skinners as elitists? That's quite a leap if you ask me.

Very sad. Brenda and I did some of our first backcountry ski trips there many years ago. Bought a fair number of lift tickets there as well. With the Hogback gone I really can't see any reason to ever visit the area again.

Funny, I never really thought the terrain out there could excite lift skiers. It's not that steep and there ain't much of it. But for us just starting out with backcountry skiing it was really something.

I'm with Lowell on this one and have no stake in  WP expansion but one reason IMVHO  that many areas are trying to expand despite flat skier visits , is to produce more varied terrain and cash in on the "sidecountry" boom. Just thumb throuh the newest Powder or Skiing and nearly evry ad is promoting new terrain and shows a picture of skiers not on groomers but in "untracked powder". Vail, Bridger Bowl etc.

Our sport is one of the few areas that is expanding and has growth in sales and hence the desire for every ski area to promote its radical new terrain. From my personal experience I know about 6 lift skiers who this year for the first time have bought " backcountry" gear and intend to start by hitting the sidecountry. These are mostly 30-40 year olds, the demographic no doubt that Black Diamond et al are trying to reach with their new skis and boots.

I haven't read the book that Telemack references but will and will then form my own opinions.Obviously given the book's publisher, whomever wrote it has a point of view and an agenda and I'm sure it has some good arguments and bullshit as well.

As with most things in life, there's usually a SENSIBLE middle ground whereas Telemack's position of No Expansion, Never and that lift skiing is mindless and hence implies those that do it are morons, too far to the left as usual but that's why I luv him.

To me there is also some reverse elitism going on here. Lift skiers are rich and elitist and skinners and dirtbaggers somehow sanctified by their self proclaimed poverty and austerity in choice of snow transportation.

I proudly say that I am a lift skiing moron, pseudo dirtbagger when I want to be, skinner and backcountry enthusiast and believe that some expansion is OK if it makes sense. Some of the most mermorable days I have ever had have been lift skiing and some have been in the BC.

I love the Northway chair when it is delivering me to untracked powder shots but hate it later in the day when it's all tracked out. Overall I would prefer no Northway as I miss the bus ride back to the base ! Seriously!

I think the last time I rode the Northcountry bus it was with you, Scots.  It was especially memorable b/c I forgot my skis on the rack and had to wait for the bus to take another lap.   :-[

Yep Telemack your right. AAAH I miss the bus. I miss sitting at the base waiting for the bus talking to other skiers. I miss trying to get my fat skis with twin tips into the outside ski carriers and hoping they would still be there when we got to the resort.
I miss the smell!

We should start a campaign" Bring back the Northway Bus"
It had character and somehow added to the ambience and adventure.
I remember skiing at Wolf Creek in COand there was an area there where they had a cat with a tow rope on the back. You all grabbed the rope and got towed back to the resort.Mucho fun!

Bring back the bus, Bring back the bus!!!

I haven't read the book that Telemack references but will and will then form my own opinions.Obviously given the book's publisher, whomever wrote it has a point of view and an agenda and I'm sure it has some good arguments and bullshit as well.

Notes on "Downhill Slide" can be found here:

www.alpenglow.org/ski-history/notes/book/clifford-2002.html