Home > Trip Reports > May 4, 2008- The Cautionary Whale

May 4, 2008- The Cautionary Whale

5/15/08
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Posted by Ken M on 5/20/08 2:51pm
Reflections on the inside of a crevasse

By now, I€™m sure many TAY readers have seen reference to the skier that fell into a crevasse on the Nisqually glacier on May 4, with reports of varying accuracy. That skier was me, and after consideration I€™ve decided to share my story in hopes of preventing anyone else from repeating this experience. It is now a little over two weeks since the accident, and I am amazingly not only alive to share this story, but (nearly) physically unaffected by my headfirst fall (save for the lingering subconjunctival hemorrhage (whites of the eyes turned blood red-gets some odd looks when out in public)).

The story begins when I turned down an appealing offer to make some turns off the N. Cascades Highway due to my desire to finish a bathroom remodel project at home. Soon after I realized I didn€™t have that much to do, I received another invitation to head up Rainier with a couple friends of a friend who have logged significant amounts of time on the volcano. I have considerable backcountry skiing background, yet limited ski mountaineering experience, so the offer to join an experienced party for my first Rainier summit attempt seemed appealing. The group wanted to attempt the Wilson Headwall, with the Finger being a backup plan should the Headwall turn out to be too sketchy.

It sounded like a good plan, though the method of heading up to Muir(to meet up with another party member) then traversing to the Wilson Glacier would not have been my first choice- then again, I wouldn€™t be attempting this enticing route without the company of the more experienced. Saturday was socked in on the mountain longer than the weathermen predicted, but the GPS did a nice job of guiding us into Muir, where we climbed above the cloud deck for some beautiful alpenglow views of the upper mountain. The clouds had dropped 1-3€ of fresh snow, which then proceeded to be blown through the night by 30mph+ winds. The gusts dropped off by first light, so we suited up and headed across the mountain with the plan to traverse off the Muir Snowfield to the glacier, rope up, then skin up to the base of the headwall.

The windblown snow had collected in regularly spaced pockets along the snow, so we enjoyed a few fresh turns as we traversed. I was last in our group of 3, trying to follow in the tracks of the leaders. I€™m not exactly sure why I stopped where I did, I think there was a gaping crevasse above me as a rounded a little bulge in what I assumed to be the edge of the glacier. It was the wrong spot to stop. My friends had cruised across the same spot, but the extra force of my stopping was enough to collapse the roof of the crevasse, covered in windblown snow without any noticeable dips or sags. It was probably not much more than 6€™ wide, but I was standing right in the middle of it, and had zero momentum to go anywhere. I saw first the snow 20€™ in front of me give way into blackness, in a horrifying almond shape that extended straight towards me. Then, I too plunged into the blackness.

Gravity works quickly, and the next thing I knew I was stuck head down in snow, looking downward at the V shaped bottom of the crevasse which was no wider than my body, so there really was not much further I could fall. My left side was pressed against the blue glacial ice, and I quickly freed my left arm. The rest of my limbs were stuck tight in a pile of thick snow. My first thought was that solo glacier travel was really a bad idea, and I was glad to be in the company of others who had a rope and practice with this sort of situation. My second thought was that I was really glad I put my climbing helmet on before undertaking the relatively flat traverse. I was somewhat uncomfortable in the position where I was stuck, but was unable to free my right hand from the snow, remove my pack, or do anything else- so I just tried to relax and wait for my friends. The 20(?) minutes or so I was stuck alone down there was a good time for reflection on the decisions that led me to this point. I heard my friend call out to me, he sounded far away but rappelled down to my position quickly, whereupon he dug me out, hooked a rope onto my harness, cut my pack straps off, and pulled me out by my feet. I felt banged up and bruised, but that was about it.

I thanked my friend for my freedom, and was then hoisted towards the light. My friends had a radio and had reported my fall to the rangers at Muir immediately, and they were among those on the surface of the glacier ready to deal with the victim when I got out. I was thankful for the hot tea I was given, and they gave me a quick medical check before I was strapped into the sled for a long trip back to Muir. This was a little before 9am, and the rest of the day consisted of my transition to a backboard, trying to re-warm my body after a stay in the glacial freezer, and waiting for a trip down the mountain. Everybody feared a spinal injury scenario, so I ended up getting a chopper ride down to Kautz Creek late in the afternoon, followed by a siren and lights ambulance ride to Tacoma General. CT scans confirmed my lack of major injury, and I walked out of the hospital a couple hours later.

Everybody wants to know how far I fell, I tell them I forgot to get out my tape measure- but the 30m rope my friends were carrying (including knots and anchors) didn€™t quite reach my stuck position, so I€™d say 80-90€™ is a good guess-this fall down a totally hidden crevasse probably only 6€™ wide at the top. I feel about as lucky as I could be to have landed in a pile of snow with enough cushion to slow me down but not bury my face in the snow at the bottom. Many times before I have crossed glaciers un-roped without consequence, though most of those admittedly not as active or gnarly as the Nisqually. I was lucky to be near Camp Muir when this happened, because even though my party was carrying more ropes and anchors than many of us consider standard for a glacier trip, I would not have had a speedy trip out of the hole without the 40m rope that was brought down by the rangers.

I don€™t really feel like laboring the reader with the lessons I€™ve taken from this experience, only to consider some scenarios that could happen much further away from help than this one did. I am grateful for the expertise of the Rainier Climbing Rangers and NPS staff, my friends for the speedy response, and the doctor at Muir who sacrificed his ski day to keep an eye on me. All things considered, it€™s in good form to come home with all your partners at the end of the day.
Glad you made it out of this ok, thanks for sharing your story.

Ken, I'm so glad you're still with us after this experience, and willing to share so that others might learn.

Hannah and I heard about your incident from the rangers at Paradise while registering for our Fuhrer Thumb trip that Sunday evening, the trip that would turn into a whiteout and an unexpected overnight bivy in a steam cave for me. Then a few minutes later, we spoke in the parking lot with several of the climbing rangers who had assisted in your rescue and sled trip back up to Muir (Arlington, Tom, and Matt). It certainly started our trip off on a note of caution about the unroped glacier travel we were about to undertake ourselves.

The next morning after we had climbed through and above the Thumb, from about 12000 ft on the western edge of the Nisqually Glacier, Hannah spotted the crevasse where you had fallen in, marked by a corridor of tracks leading from Camp Muir in a J-shape to the lower lip of the crevasse. I hope you don't mind if I post a couple of pictures of the crevasse location so that others can understand where this occurred. It is right on the edge of the Muir Snowfield at about 9600 ft, not far from where many skiers go to find smooth untracked snow along its edge, and I think I've skied very near that spot several times over the years.

(click thumbnails for large 1600-pixel wide images)

   
Overview of the Nisqually Glacier from about 12000 ft,   
with the rectangle marking the area of the zoomed view.   
   
Zoomed view of the crevasse and vicinity.


In light of my own near-fall into a crevasse while skiing unroped on Mt Shuksan's White Salmon Glacier only 8 days earlier, followed by the experience on the Thumb trip, I really deeply understand many of the feelings you must have experienced as the crevasse opened beneath you and during the long minutes of uncertainty while down inside.

Best wishes on your continued recovery from your eye injury,
Amar

Amar hopes you don't mind posting any pictures prior to your approval, so he's going to do it anyway.  8)

I don't mind at all- it's a public mountain ;D
I actually hadn't seen any pictures of the area, it's good to get a little perspective on the location.

Glad your outcome was a reasonably good one!  This is a great reminder to all about crevasse hazards and the fact that they don't announce themselves or necessarily show surface indications. I have also busted through a "roof" but was fortunate to have had an ice axe in hand when my armpits & backpack suspended me. Hell of a struggle to slowly start pulling out while not knowing if my movements would make the dilemna worse. I could tell however that the uphill edge of it was thick and solid enough to hold me. When I had myself a little more than halfway out, I laid flat, arms spread to distribute the load but couldn't go uphill with no foot traction so rolled slowly off to a side. My buddies came back to where I was a couple minutes later (they were a couple hundred feet ahead and just over a crest) and were pretty surprised to see that nasty looking hole. The location, Silver Star glacier and it was an April trip. Havng done the tour several times before never revealed that crevasse but ice is dynamic....and things change.

Thanks, Ken, fo sharing your sobering experience.
Amar, thanks for posting those pictures -- it is helpful knowing where this incident took place.

In skiing the Cascades backcountry since '70-'71 I have never had or even heard of a glacier skiing crevasse accident in the Cascades.  This year there are the White salmon and Nisqually incidents, the Silver Star incident, the Coast Range (Spearhead) incident, and the recent disappearance on the Coleman Gl. which may well be a crevasse accident.  Todd E's theory about the colder than usual snow this spring might be a big factor.  In any case, what should we do?  I've grown accustomed to treating spring crevasse danger on skis with nonchalance (especially on Silver Star Glacier - what is the world coming to?).  Equipment might help sometimes, as in carry an axe and crampons to climb out if you can, but this wouldn't have helped in the Nisqually incident.  Suggestions about  procedures, cautions, equipment?

Thanks for sharing your story, Ken.

Like sb, I hadn't heard of many crevasse incidents in the Northwest involving skiers before this year. We've had a rash of them this spring.

I've roped up occasionally when ascending or traversing glaciers on skis, but to be honest I haven't done it very much recently. (And I've nearly always removed the rope when skiing down.) These incidents provide valuable negative feedback. I hope I'll think twice about skiing unroped on glaciers when I'm not descending. It seems like traversing (skiing parallel to the crevasses) has been a common factor in several incidents this year. Skiing roped isn't a big handicap in that situation, so why not do it more often?

I remember in particular that we didn't rope up traversing from Camp Muir to Camp Schurman across the Emmons Glacier a couple years ago. I've also traversed the Boston Glacier several times without roping up. It seems dumb in retrospect.

====
Edit: Here are links to the White Salmon and Spearhead incidents.


As others are, I too am guilty of traveling solo on glaciers and most often do not wear a helmet.  Your experience has made me re-evaluate such decisions.  Thank you for sharing.

author=David_Coleman link=topic=10137.msg40716#msg40716 date=1211384023]
Amar hopes you don't mind posting any pictures prior to your approval, so he's going to do it anyway. 8)
  David, you crack me up.  ;D

The following post (almost 20 years old) is interesting in light of this year's crevasse incidents and sb's observations in this thread. I posted it back in the Usenet days before there was a World Wide Web. (Yeah, I'm an information pack-rat.) The original writer (Ken Roberts) posted a quote from "The Best Ski Touring in America" and asked for comments:


From: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. (Lowell Skoog)
Newsgroups: rec.skiing,rec.backcountry
Subject: Cascade glacier skiing hazards
Keywords: Response to Ken Roberts (mail bombed twice)
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Date: 21 May 89 18:00:48 GMT
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Status: RO

> Steve Barnett says:
> "I have never even heard of a skier falling into a hidden crevasse
> in the Washington Cascades in the spring."
>                 (in The Best Ski Touring in America).

> What's your evaluation?  Is the hazard on glaciers really
> that much less in the Cascades than in other places?

I agree with Barnett.  My tactics on glaciers are generally to rope
up when ascending or traversing, then to remove the rope for the
descent.  On mellow glaciers I often skip the rope altogether.
Assuming you are descending the same glacier you climbed up, you have
probably checked out the crevasse pattern on the ascent.  (If not,
you have to rely on your judgment.)  I can't say that Cascade
glaciers are really safer than others, acre per acre, but there are
some mitigating factors:

1.  The warm maritime climate produces strong crevasse bridging,
    unlike the interior ranges or Alaska.  In Alaska, for example,
    crevasse bridges rot from temperature gradient metamorphism.
    That doesn't happen here.

2.  The glaciers in the Cascades really aren't that extensive so, as
    much has we local boosters claim otherwise, skiers really don't
    spend that much time on them (as a percentage of the total trip
    duration).

3.  Generally, Cascade glacier skiers are pretty competent
    mountaineers.  They are glacier-wise.  If the profile of the ski
    population changes, Barnett's statement may no longer hold true.
    As evidence of this, I have heard of several instances of
    snowmobilers dropping their rigs into crevasses on Mt. Baker.
    The snowmobilers I have met didn't know a glacier from an ice
    cube.

As a side note, I have heard of very few cases of climbers falling
into crevasses around here.  It really doesn't happen that often.
When you're wearing skis the chances of punching through are even
less.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lowell Skoog - John Fluke Mfg. Co. Inc., P.O. Box C9090, Everett, WA  98206
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I wouldn't say how you traveled back then is particularly dumb, Lowell. Having been out during the days these crevasse falls happened, I can say that conditions were not spring like, or even winter like (as you know). The conditions were soft, deep and wet snow that had no stable base (I remember seeing Amar and team out on the white salmon, and thinking, "Why the hell is someone out there so late?!" Nothing against them, I break my own rules often, too). To top it off, newer snow had blown over many crevasses giving the appearance of safety. These sloppy spring/winter cycles are the most dangerous? When the snow hardens up and has endured a nice freeze/thaw cycle glaciers are more predictable. I don't see changing anything I do because things are dangerous now (unless I am climbing in these conditions)? But to each their own, I've made my own misjudgments in the mountains. The 1000 times a rope isn't needed, doesn't make the one time it is worthless. Even so, I use a rope rarely. At the very least, I should carry it so I have the choice to use it when needed...as I would've this past weekend on rainier, even if it were for only a few hundred feet.

A few notes regarding the incident. At 8 in the morning, not following any warm days, the snow was hardly deep and soft as some recent TRs have described. Freezing levels were probably hovering near Paradise the day before, and the clear night at 10k probably put temps in the low 20s at warmest, but these are just guesses. I will not say that there were zero signs that there was something under the snow at this location, my friends remarked later that they didn't like the looks of the spot where I stopped, but as you can see from Amar's photos, there were other much more attention grabbing features that I guess I was focused on. The surface was free of the most telling signs- dips, sags, nearby holes, and the whole surface of the glacier had a fresh windblown covering. As for the direction of travel, we were generally traversing(but were also descending to get below cliffs onto the Wilson), but the accident happened as I had finished cranking a few downhill turns and I guess I decided to stop and check out the features in my traverse path before continuing. It occurred to me while stuck below that sudden stops might not be the safest method while glacier skiing, but my mindset was a little bit more in the standard backcountry skiing mode of stopping before obstacles being a decent safety protocol.

Dumb is hard to define.  Perhaps the dumbest thing to do is to inadequately consider your choices and the likely consequences.  Prophylaxis should always be subject to a 'cost vs. benefit analysis.'

Roping up on a typical glacier:

costs: rope (and accessories) is heavy; takes up space; physically connects climbers (limits mobility/efficiency); can force alterations to the 'natural' path climber(s) would otherwise take; can aggravate falling situations without proper protection/training of each member; requires attention (is distracting); is unaesthetic.

benefits: may catch and allow rescue of a fall into a bridged or hidden crevasse, provided adequate training/equipment/protection/purchase; physically connects climbers so that they don't get separated.

If you run through a similar thought process (as I am sure that most do) in order to make the decision then you're not categorically dumb, although you can still be wrong if the relative importance that you place on each item turns out to be incongruous with the reality given the location, conditions, company, etc.

I would argue the cost of roping up on a conventional glacier is pretty minor, although this could slow you down/be annoying on skis for gravity-assisted travel such as a descending traverse.  I haven't traversed the Nisqually before but one could imagine roping up for the glacier section and then possibly stashing the rope and glacier gear before booting up a headwall, if weight is that much of an issue.  Of course, whether or not a rope team of two, three, or even four typical skiers could competently hold and self-rescue a crevasse fall is debatable, at least in my mind.

Regarding weather conditions overnight and at the time of the incident, here is the previous day's forecast:

MOUNT RAINIER RECREATIONAL FORECAST
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE SEATTLE WA
330 AM PDT SAT MAY 3 2008

SYNOPSIS...A WEAK TROUGH WILL BRING A CHANCE OF SHOWERS TO WESTERN WASHINGTON TODAY.
WEAK HIGH PRESSURE WILL BUILD INTO THE AREA SUNDAY.
A COUPLE OF VERY WEAK SYSTEMS WILL BRUSH BY THE AREA EARLY IN THE WEEK.
AN UPPER LEVEL TROUGH WILL DEVELOP OVER WASHINGTON MIDWEEK.

SATURDAY...MOSTLY CLOUDY WITH A CHANCE OF SHOWERS. SNOW LEVEL 5000 FEET.
SATURDAY NIGHT...PARTLY CLOUDY. A CHANCE OF SHOWERS IN THE EVENING. SNOW LEVEL 5000 FEET.
SUNDAY...MOSTLY SUNNY. FREEZING LEVEL 7500 FEET.
SUNDAY NIGHT...PARTLY CLOUDY. FREEZING LEVEL 8500 FEET.
MONDAY...MOSTLY SUNNY. FREEZING LEVEL 8000 FEET.

                        SAT    SAT    SUN    SUN    MON 
                             NIGHT         NIGHT       

SUMMIT   (14411 FT)      5      7     14     13     14
                      SW  6  NE 15  NW  8   W 35   W 32

CAMP MUIR(10188 FT)     20     22     26     28     27
                       W  6  NE 10   S  8   W 18   W 18

PARADISE  (5420 FT)     40     31     50     36     54
                       N  6   N 11  NW 10  NW  5   W  7



Unfortunately, the NWAC telemetry from Camp Muir had an outage from 7am on May 2 until 5am on May 6, so no data is available. But here is the Paradise telemetry, which does show freezing temps overnight and then rapid warming during the early AM hours, reaching 42 F at the time of this incident (8am), and 48 F only an hour later. But as Ken said, temps at 10000 ft must have still been in the 20s at that time.

Northwest Weather and Avalanche Center
Paradise, Mt Rainier National Park, Washington

MM/DD  Hour  Temp    RH  Wind  Wind  Wind  Hour Total 24 Hr Total
        PST     F     %   Avg   Max   Dir Prec. Prec.  Snow  Snow
            5550' 5550' 5500' 5500' 5500' 5550' 5550' 5550' 5550'
------------------------------------------------------------------
  5 3     0    35    89     1     4   296     0     0     0   201
  5 3   100    34    90     0     2   311     0     0     0   201
  5 3   200    36    84    -0     0   311     0     0     0   201
  5 3   300    35    82     0     1   333     0     0     0   201
  5 3   400    35    84     0     1   208     0     0     0   201
  5 3   500    34    90     0     0   271     0     0     0   201
  5 3   600    34    92     0     2   311     0     0     0   201
  5 3   700    34    94    -0     0   277     0     0     0   200
  5 3   800    37    88     0     1   207     0     0     0   200
  5 3   900    37    87     0     2   272     0     0     0   200
  5 3  1000    35    93     1     5   264     0     0     0   200
  5 3  1100    35    93     3     6   274     0     0     0   200
  5 3  1200    36    94     3     6   281     0     0     0   200
  5 3  1300    37    92     3     5   275     0     0     0   200
  5 3  1400    37    93     3     7   268     0     0     0   200
  5 3  1500    36    94     3     6   271     0     0     0   200
  5 3  1600    34    97     2     5   275     0     0     0   200
  5 3  1700    34    97     2     6   263   .01   .01     0   200
  5 3  1800    33    99     2     4   274   .02   .03     0   200
  5 3  1900    32   100     1     3   278   .01   .04     0   200
  5 3  2000    32   100     0     3   280     0   .04     1   200
  5 3  2100    31   100     0     2   280     0   .04     1   200
  5 3  2200    31   100     0     3   280     0   .04     1   200
  5 3  2300    31    99     0     0   281     0   .04     1   200
  5 4     0    32   100     1     4    86     0   .04     1   200
  5 4   100    31   100     0     3    95     0   .04     1   200
  5 4   200    33    99     2     8    92     0   .04     1   201
  5 4   300    34    95     3    10    86     0   .04     1   201
  5 4   400    33    94     4    11    95     0   .04     1   200
  5 4   500    36    87     3     8    90     0     0     1   201
  5 4   600    37    83     4     9    96     0     0     1   200
  5 4   700    39    78     4    11    99     0     0     1   200
  5 4   800    42    73     4    11    99     0     0     0   200
  5 4   900    48    62     3     9   105     0     0     0   199
  5 4  1000    46    68     4    11   111     0     0     1   200
  5 4  1100    48    66     4     8   105     0     0     0   199
  5 4  1200    50    57     3     5   105     0     0     0   199
  5 4  1300    47    71     2     6    83     0     0     0   199
  5 4  1400    49    51     2     7   106     0     0     0   198
  5 4  1500    54    44     2     5   101     0     0     0   197
  5 4  1600    51    59     1     5   192     0     0     0   197
  5 4  1700    52    63     2     8   311     0     0     0   197
  5 4  1800    45    75     2     5   275     0     0     0   198
  5 4  1900    43    81     0     2   281     0     0     0   198
  5 4  2000    42    60     0     1   292     0     0     0   198
  5 4  2100    42    61     0     2     4     0     0     0   198
  5 4  2200    41    61     0     0     7     0     0     0   198
  5 4  2300    42    61     0     2   350     0     0     0   198
  5 5     0    40    64     0     3   321     0     0     0   198




I actually went into a crevasse on the Kennedy Glacier on April 1st of 1992. I was skiing with Lowell's brother Carl and had the rope in my pack. This was around 8500'. There was six inches of new snow which hid the crevasse and then a 2' bridge of recent dry snows, broken by the crevasse. The remnant bridge, which was about 4' wide (open) saved my life as I held on with my elbows. At the time I didn't think the crevasse was that deep, but as i climbed out on Carl's belay, I could see that if I had broken through the bridge I would likely have gone about 200'.

Let me throw out a protocol for glacier travel in the Cascades.

If there is even one crevasse visible every member of the party has at least a 20m piece of rope, a set of prusiks or ascenders (ti-blocs don’t weigh much and are a bit handier than a prusik), a light etrier (Petzl makes an ultra light one) or at least a cord with a foot loop, a light harness (CAMP makes a nice ultra light one),  a few slings, carabiners, and a pulley or two.  That way, if someone falls in, or even just breaks through partially, there is a possibility of helping them.

If you are on a glacier alone carry an axe and crampons.  This is far from absolute security, but does give you a better chance of climbing out. Carry the axe so you can get it quickly.  Such as between the pack and your back, with a leash so it won’t get lost if you end up upside down.

Rope up when climbing or traversing.  Stay close to the ascent line when descending. 

If it’s before mid June assume there are hidden crevasses (unless there’s been a long hot spring).

Additionally (not part of the protocol, but suggested): 

Carry a long sling to use as a chest harness along with a prusik. Then if you fall in you’ll not end up upside down.

Carry a single ice screw.  Then if you fall in you can put in a reliable anchor and get rearranged to climb out.

If there’s just two of you put several figure 8 knots in the rope between you and your partner.  Hopefully, these will jam in the crevasse lip and make stopping the fall and setting up an anchor much easier.  Tiblocs will be easier getting around the knots than prusiks. 

I saw a TV show where the protagonist (Bear Gryls) travelled alone on a glacier trailing a rope with knots tied in it.  Perhaps there was a weighted sack tied to the end.  I haven’t got any idea if this is actually useful.  ??



author=sb link=topic=10137.msg40835#msg40835 date=1211829352]Additionally (not part of the protocol, but suggested):

Carry a long sling to use as a chest harness along with a prusik. Then if you fall in you’ll not end up upside down...

...If there’s just two of you put several figure 8 knots in the rope between you and your partner. Hopefully, these will jam in the crevasse lip and make stopping the fall and setting up an anchor much easier....


Great list, just a couple of comments.  Butterfly knots are what I've always used, rather than figure 8's because figure 8's aren't as bulky and don't create as much friction/stopping power through the snow.  A butterfly knot adds some bulk and a "wing" of rope to hopefully catch the lip better.  Also, butterfly knots are easier to untie after they've been weighted, where as figure 8's are ridiculous to untie when weighted.  Same reason I always tie in with a rewoven bowline as opposed to figure 8.

Also, I've always included a chest harness as being mandatory.  When hanging in a crevasse, the first thing after shedding my pack is righting myself, and I've found that is easiest done with a chest harness to clip into.

Chest harness = great tip. Secondary tip. If you're using a sling for a chest harness ... be very careful because the harness can rapidly and forcefully constrict your chest as the fall is arrested. It can also provide unwanted chest constriction depending on how you are oriented after a fall.

What would you suggest instead of a sling as a light chest harness?

to be clearer - I meant using a figure 8ed sling as a chest harness.  Is this better?

Another option for a chest harness is to use a "kiwi-coil" when tying in with the rope you are already using... As far as tying knots in the rope goes, that would work better if you have another piece of rope to (1) send to the victim for prusiking out or (2) set up a hauling system with. Reason being, the knots would be very hard to ascend around (especially if near the lip) and next to impossible to pull through a hauling system.

Was not criticizing the use of a sling as a chest harness - as I said, it's a great tip. Just noting that there can be unpleasant or dangerous side effects as a result of sudden, forceful constriction of the chest cavity like you'd experience during the arrest. There's a reason most people climb with seat harnesses instead of chest harnesses - except for those odd caver types.

also, if you do any rock climbing, namely solo climbing, BD makes a super light chest harness that I've used both for rock and mountain ascents.  It's a good investment, as it can also be used for multi-day trips requiring a tyrolean.

My preferred system for glacier travel is for each person to carry 20m segments in addition to the rope joining the skiers.  Then each person has an unencumbered rope to drop to the victim, set up a hauling system, etc.

European perspective . . .

I've been skiing in France + Switzerland a lot in recent years, not much in the Cascades. When I did more spring skiing in the Cascades I did some unroped skiing on glaciers, with happy results.

In Europe I do lots of springtime skiing on glaciers, and this is what I see:
* Nobody ever ropes up for skiing down.
* Almost nobody ropes for skiing up.
* Some people solo on glaciers (including me sometimes)

Examples:
* last year around Zermatt, Switzerland in late April -- giant glaciers with giant crevasses photos: Skiing from the Monte Rosa hut up to the Dufourspitz and Nordend (two highest peaks in Switzerland) -- zero parties roped. Two days later skiing up to the Zumsteinspitze + Signalkuppe (different Monte Rosa summits reached by a completely different glacier): I saw zero parties from the Swiss side roped, 2 out of say 30 parties from the Italy side roped climbing up.

* this May on Toedi in the Glarner Alps, Switzerland photos. At least a hundred skiers climbed on a sunny Saturday -- on the upper glacier (with some crevasses visible), I saw zero roped.

Qualifications:
* in both situations, it was a big snow year for that region - (that's why my partners and I chose to go there).

* in both situations, it had been at least 3 days since the last snowfall, including at least one full day of bright sunshine, and it was springtime and not real cold.

* not much wind in the last snowfall.

* lotsa people ski the good tours in Europe, so if I'm patient and give up on untracked snow, I can allow lots of other skiers to "test" the crevasse zones before I climb up or ski down them.

While it's true that I could possibly fall thru a crevasse in any situation, I think the probabilities are much lower if I'm taking advantage of those four qualifications, and much higher for skiers who are not.

Carrying lots of extra safety equipment can be a good idea, but I think the first line of defense is to get the probabities working in my favor of not punching into a crevasse at all.

For some more Euro perspective, see the crevasse death articles in March + April 2008 on www.pistehors.com - (the forums on pistehors.com are sort of Turns-All-Year for France).

Ken

Then there's this fundamental "strangeness" about roping for climbing up on lots of ski tours:

* the forces on the snow surface tend to be stronger when skiing down.

* the crevasse bridges tend to be weaker at the time of day skiing down.

* navigation tends to be less careful while skiing down.

* sometimes a separate descent route has more crevasses than the up-route (because we chose not to climb up it because of risk of serac fall).

But we usually ski down un-roped.

So the "strangeness" is that if we really think the crevasse-bridge danger is significant enough to make us want to rope for climbing up on skis, then why are we out skiing this tour on this day at all?

Europe observations refined:

* guided ski parties more often rope for climbing up. (but not for skiing down, and two of the crevasse-bridge deaths in France this year were clients of guides).

* rando racers in Europe more often compete as teams, and I think rules for some spring races require doing certain sections roped, so they need to train for good coordinations climbing on skis roped together.

* I sometimes roped up for climbing on skis even when other parties did not, like earlier this month thru the Buuch icefall of the Piz Bernina.

Ken

Lauds to all the experienced contributors to this thread. 

I am compelled to contribute the following:

Team arrest while on skis is very difficult, even impossible in some circumstances, especially when equipped with only ski poles or a Whippet.  If you don't believe me, try it.  I am persuaded that, in the rare event that a roped skier falls in a crevasse, there is a substantial risk of a team member being pulled into the same crevasse.  Thus, I have surmised that, if a rope is going to be used by a team of skiers during glacier travel, the better method is for each skier to wear a harness (and carry prusiks, slings, rescue gear) and have at least two members of the team carry a short rope, keeping those members apart from each other.  sb's recommendation of 20m ropes for each party member achieves this, of course.  There is at least one other rationale for this method: ski edges have caused rope failures, and keeping ropes away from ski edges is trickier than avoiding stepping on a rope with crampons.

Also, a skier's fall on the Coleman was reported on TAY last year: http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboarding/trip_reports/index.php?topic=7348.0
That one hit close to home for me because I have dangled for a few frightening seconds over a crevasse by my arm pits on the Coleman (no skis).

We were one of the groups behind the said "crevasse fall" group that day on baker.  We were roped up, but had debated.  We always rope up for the ascent, if on glaciated terrain, and that event helped to solidify that mentality.  Even with skis, you can still manuever fairly easily with an axe in hand.  On the down, no rope.  Not unless you're belaying for a highly prone avy area or rappelling to a line.  Although team arresting on skis is more difficult than without, I prefer the option of my fall possibly being arrested as to the alternative...just my opinion. 

One other thing I think is interesting is I read a lot of "Nobody ever..." or "Almost nobody...".  A wise mountaineer once told me, "Just because the bootpack is well traveled and visible doesn't mean it's the best route."  I know I won't jump off the allegorical bridge.  Despite the hindrances, I still feel the odds are much more in my favor to rope up on the up.

Some discussion of the same topic here-

http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/796283#Post796283

author=Big Steve link=topic=10137.msg40926#msg40926 date=1212006421">
Also, a skier's fall on the Coleman was reported on TAY last year: http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboarding/trip_reports/index.php?topic=7348.0
That one hit close to home for me because I have dangled for a few frightening seconds over a crevasse by my arm pits on the Coleman (no skis).


I don't think that was a skier's fall. I think the person who fell in was walking.

author=Big Steve link=topic=10137.msg40926#msg40926 date=1212006421">
I am persuaded that, in the rare event that a roped skier falls in a crevasse, there is a substantial risk of a team member being pulled into the same crevasse.  Thus, I have surmised that, if a rope is going to be used by a team of skiers during glacier travel, the better method is for each skier to wear a harness (and carry prusiks, slings, rescue gear) and have at least two members of the team carry a short rope, keeping those members apart from each other.


If you are roped up on the ascent (which is what most people have suggested) and you are following the leader's track, the person with the greatest risk of falling into a crevasse is the leader, since he/she is the first to cross the bridge. Since you're ascending, the leader is generally above the rest of the party. If the leader falls into a crevasse, the pull on the rest of the rope team is going to be uphill. I think the risk of being dragged into the crevasse is significantly smaller in this case. Of course there are other scenarios that could happen, but my feeling is that, when ascending a slope, I would rather fall into a crevasse while roped to my ski companions then while unroped.

author=Lowell_Skoog link=topic=10137.msg40932#msg40932 date=1212017918] I don't think that was a skier's fall. I think the person who fell in was walking.


Lowell, my interpretation of the account was that she was wearing skis when she fell.  I recall some reference to skin tracks leading to the hole she created when she punched through.

author=Lowell_Skoog link=topic=10137.msg40932#msg40932 date=1212017918]If you are roped up on the ascent (which is what most people have suggested) and you are following the leader's track, the person with the greatest risk of falling into a crevasse is the leader, since he/she is the first to cross the bridge. Since you're ascending, the leader is generally above the rest of the party. If the leader falls into a crevasse, the pull on the rest of the rope team is going to be uphill. I think the risk of being dragged into the crevasse is significantly smaller in this case. Of course there are other scenarios that could happen, but my feeling is that, when ascending a slope, I would rather fall into a crevasse while roped to my ski companions then while unroped.


That's a good point, and one we considered when altering our method of glacier travel while on skis after our experience with the team arrest practice.  One of the group shared your view and thus decided to carry ropes on flat or low angle terrain, and rope up on the steeper slopes.

But, as you observed on a prior post, glacier ascents sometimes occur while traversing, and thus the leader is sometime no so far above the other team members, even on a substantial slope.

My principal points are that: (a) the difficulty of team arrest while on skis is a factor that should be considered when deciding on roping strategy; and (b) even very experienced ski mountaineers may not realize just how difficult it is to team arrest, having never tried to do so.  How to apply factor (a) is situational.

author=Big Steve link=topic=10137.msg40935#msg40935 date=1212020915]
My principal points are that: (a) the difficulty of team arrest while on skis is a factor that should be considered when deciding on roping strategy; and (b) even very experienced ski mountaineers may not realize just how difficult it is to team arrest, having never tried to do so.  How to apply factor (a) is situational.


Excellent points.

The difficulty of team arrest is a point that I've considered with regards to this scenario. While there was some softish wind-drifted snow over the glacier that day, it was quite firm to icy under that. I am a graduate of the Mountaineers Glacier Travel/Crevasse Rescue class, during which we practiced arresting crevasse type falls. It seemed reasonable to arrest in such a situation, but our practice was conducted in soft, spring like snow conditions. Ski edges seem like a prime tool to arrest crevasse falls, but during our practice sessions, it was not uncommon to be ejected from releasable bindings. If we had been roped up at the time of the incident, I'm not sure we all would have been focused on having an ice axe in hand. While I was not necessarily happy to free-fall into the crevasse, I was quite glad that my partners had the rope, radio, and main anchors. I was also glad I was the only one to go in- as I mentioned before, gravity works fast, and once the second person is over the lip, the standard 3 person rope team would have a hard time stopping, let alone extracting, the fallen.

author=Lowell_Skoog link=topic=10137.msg40932#msg40932 date=1212017918]
I don't think that was a skier's fall. I think the person who fell in was walking.

As stugie had stated before we were up there that day and talked with the group for a few minutes. They were bootpacking up to the low saddle when she fell into the crevasse and there were no skis at there camp.

A little historical perspective. I interviewed Walt Little in March 2001 and asked him about the ski mountaineering course he started for The Mountaineers before WWII. Walt was the grandfather of ski mountaineering instruction in the Northwest. Here are some notes from our conversation. Walt was recalling events 60 years earlier, but he was a sharp guy, so I presume that his memory was mostly accurate:

Ski mountaineering course, 1941-42

Walt and others became interested in longer tours to higher summits. He skied Mt St Helens four years in a row before World War II. He recalled that May 25 was the magic date and they had great skiing every time they went. Around 1940, Walt collaborated with other members of the Mountaineers to create a course for ski tourers who wanted to ski mountains, not just go cross-country. They wanted the course to be complete, to cover winter camping and appropriate mountaineering techniques. This became the Mountaineers ski mountaineering course. About a dozen people were involved organizing the course.

They consulted European books about skiing on glaciers, but concluded that the books hadn't got it right. One book showed skiers carrying big coils of rope, but that was no good. There should be no slack in the rope, to minimize the length of a fall. The books also recommended ropes that were too short. Walt's group found that 200 feet of rope was desirable, with at least three people on a rope. 100 feet was not enough. The longer rope gave more friction to stop a fall. They spent a few weekends experimenting at Paradise. They would send a skier over the cornice in Edith Creek Basin and practice stopping the fall and performing a crevasse rescue.

They ran the course for two years until it was stopped by World War II. They created a course syllabus, but Walt didn't keep any of the materials (see msc-1941). After the war, Walt lost interest in the course and John Hansen took it over. I asked whether other clubs had comparable programs at the time. Walt didn't know, but he thought the Sierra Club might have.


I thought Walt's observations about rope length were especially interesting.

Thanks for sharing!  Lowell, you've met with some really neat people and groups to do some great things in the PNW.  As for the Mountianeers and how the fundamentals have changed in the mountains, I find the observations about rope length really interesting too...I think now (at least according to the latest Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills edition) they recommend 3 people on a 120 ft. rope, also aknowledging "where truly humongous crevasses exist - the Himalayas or Alaska - greater spacing may be necessary." (pg. 340 in 6th ed. - 7th says the same, I just can't find it right now...lol)

Any guesses as to why the figures changed?  Differences in rope material?  Larger crevasses in the PNW back in the 40's?  I wonder if the static rope of that time in longer increments created more friction actually reducing the fall than lengthening it as one might think the extra length would do?

KenR, thanks for your observations from the European perspective.  I spent my first time there on glaciers this April.   My impression was that the standard approach to rescue was to call for help and get hauled out of a crevasse by helicopter (I think they fund rescue support differently).  So much for the z-pulley.  I was told that there had been 40 crevasse rescues this season (as of mid-April) and 3 deaths.  The glaciers and crevasse hazards were on a much greater scale compared with what I have experienced here, with access much easier and by far more skiers (sometimes directly from or in lift areas).  As you noted, almost no one ropes up on ascent or descent from what I observed.   We didn't.  On the Vallee Blanche and Vallee Noire glaciers, there were ski tracks everywhere crossing through heavily crevassed areas.  

From a personal perspective, I was far more conservative as a climber on glaciers to rope up (almost always).  In my years of skiing, roping up as become increasingly infrequent.   On the Rainier circumnav last July, I think we roped up on maybe 4 of the 20 glaciers we crossed.  On the one descent which we roped up, the risk of pulling a partner off balance or skiing over the rope seemed to outweigh the benefit of stopping a fall.  

I will note, however, that my two close calls while skiing on glaciers have involved descents, not ascents.  Once in April, a snow covered crevasse on the Quien Sabe collapsed as I skied over it.  Fortunately my forward momentum carrying me over the crevasse as I fell forward after hitting the downhill lip with my skis.  If I had been turning differently, I may have fallen in rather than over the hole.   Many years before, I skied over the edge of a large open crevasse that was not visible from a roll above.  Looking back and seeing your tracks over an open crevasse gives one pause.  From my experience, I would not minimize the risks of descending glaciers on skis.

Although I'd agree that the leader has the most risk of falling, Amar was behind the leader on his partial crevasse fall last month on the White Salmon.  From what I recall him saying, he saw a small dark hole created where Jeff broke trail, so there was some evidence that something was there.

author=Stugie link=topic=10137.msg40930#msg40930 date=1212013225]Despite the hindrances, I still feel the odds are much more in my favor to rope up on the up.

If there's any significant risk of crevasse-bridge failure, you usually are safer.
On the ascent.

My question is:
Now that we made it up the ascent without any crevasse bridges failing, why do we then feel confident to unrope for skiing down?

For me it's a bit like avalanche risk. We dig a pit, snowpack looks not too unstable. Does that mean it's safe for us to ski the slope?
Maybe not.
That's why people started promoting approaches like the "Munter method", which didn't rely on digging and analyzing pits.  And lots of very intelligent experienced skiers I know don't dig pits very often.

It's usually clear what to conclude and decide when the results of testing the snow are scary. The problem is what to do when the results are not scary . . . We "tested" the crevasse bridges in specific places by walking gently on them with skis when it was cold early in the morning, and got to the top without punching through. But in the Cascades, that's what happens climbing on skis 99.99% of the time.
So how much have we really learned about whether it's now safe to unrope for the descent?

author=Paul_Russell link=topic=10137.msg40949#msg40949 date=1212040354]my two close calls while skiing on glaciers have involved descents, not ascents.
From my experience, I would not minimize the risks of descending glaciers on skis.

And I think the 3 crevasse-bridge deaths on France this year were on descents.
When I said, "Nobody ever ropes up for descents", my point was not that that's a smart practice -- only that my observation in lots of places is that that's how skiers actually do it.

That's why I raised the question about the "strangeness" of roping up.
I'm thinking it can be dangerous to have a practice of climbing roped -- if it makes a party of skiers feel that practice makes it OK to go out in a questionable place on a questionable day -- and then after the climbing up works, then it's OK to descend unroped (which is surely what they will conclude and then do).

It's dangerous if relying on the rope for climbing up is a substitute for sober analysis of crevasse risks. (Just like it's dangerous if relying on beacons + shovels is a substitute for sober analysis of avalanche risks.)

Ken

author=KenR link=topic=10137.msg40952#msg40952 date=1212069850]
My question is:
Now that we made it up the ascent without any crevasse bridges failing, why do we then feel confident to unrope for skiing down?


Confident isn't quite the word I would use, but instead I would say it would be 'less hazardous'.  I think the reson behind not roping for a descent is based on simple physics.  On a descent (unless rappelling or belaying for avy safety as I stated previous), the likelihood of being pulled into a crevasse is much greater due to the angle of the slope and the skier's orientation to the hazard (uphill) and the angle of pull (pulling downhill).  Obviously, the danger of falling through a snow bridge is ever-present, no matter if it's up or down.  However, taking a skier/snowboarders speed, weight distribution, and the ease of being pulled downslope as opposed to upslope, it seems to me that traveling roped uphill (or when traversing as has been discussed as well), the benefits of roping up outweigh the cons.  On the downhill, I feel the possible hazards of roping up outweigh the pros.  Hope that explains where I'm at on the issue...but it's just my 2 cents...interested to hear what others have to say... :)

author=Lowell_Skoog link=topic=10137.msg40944#msg40944 date=1212034607]I thought Walt's observations about rope length were especially interesting.


Very interesting indeed.  I assume that a rope in 1941-42 was significantly less dynamic than today's modern ropes, and thus the force on the arresting skier would have been greater back then, thus in theory corresponding to longer time/distance to team arrest.  Although I often use a short (3 on a 30m) rope for glacier travel, I must acknowledge that I feel safer with 3 or 4 on a  60m (c. 197') or 50m (164') rope (longer, less impact force, more time to team arrest, more rope for rescue).

Re fallen climber on the Coleman, I stand corrected.  Apparently, the skin tracks referrenced in the account were created by someone else.  

author=KenR link=topic=10137.msg40952#msg40952 date=1212069850]
My question is:
Now that we made it up the ascent without any crevasse bridges failing, why do we then feel confident to unrope for skiing down?


I can only speak for me, of course.  IME, descending while roped presents an additional set of hazards, including: (a) increasing the likelihood of a second or third skier being pulled into a crevasse (see previous discussion re team arrest while on skis); (b) damaging the rope with a ski edge; and (c) getting tangled up in the rope while skiing.  Thus, for me, descending unroped usually seems the better option.  YMMV.  Again, roping strategy is situational, and equally competent and experienced alpinists may select different strategies in the same conditions.

Like others who have commented here, my team has roped up when others in the area are unroped (and often have no rope available).  Sometimes the youngsters give me a "what a fuddy duddy old goat that guy must be" look, but that sort of leer no longer affects me because, after all, I am a fuddy duddy old goat.

Wow, lots of good discussion in this thread!

After posting the notes from my conversation with Walt Little, I pulled out my photocopy of the ski mountaineering handbook that Walt wrote for the Mountaineers' first ski mountaineering course in 1941-42. I have two editions of this handbook, one from the 1941-42 course (143 pages) and one from the 1942-43 course (71 pages). I photocopied them both from U.W. Special Collections, Accession 3272. I have not looked carefully at the differences between these two editions.

I found the section on glacier skiing in the 2nd edition and transcribed a chunk of it. I've inserted it below for your interest. Roy Snider, an old-timer (now deceased) who helped Walt Little with the original Mountaineers course, told me that Walt "wrote a book" for the course and that he loved to teach. Roy's comment suggests that Walt was the primary author of this material. I think republishing it is a nice way to honor Walt Little, who passed away in 2002 at age 92.

Walt's handbook is remarkable for how much thought he and his collaborators put into the question of glacier skiing. I can't recall seeing such a thorough discussion in any modern book. The thing he seems to emphasize most is the importance of keeping a tight rope. I suspect that the early Mountaineers understood well the difficulties of stopping a fall on skis and this was a key lesson for them.


GLACIER SKIING

From "Ski Mountaineering," a handbook for The Mountaineers ski mountaineering course prepared for the 2nd year of the course beginning in autumn 1942 (p.  63).  Lead author: Walter B.  Little.

Reasons For Glacier Skiing

Glaciers present opportunities for skiing later in the season than would otherwise be the case.

Glaciers must sometimes be crossed enroute to the desired terminus.

Frequently glaciers present best approaches to the summits of peaks.

Glacier skiing highly enjoyable to some, requiring more varied, skillful skiing, and avoidance of obstacles.

A ski-mountaineer should be able to safely ski on glaciers in case of an emergency.

Characteristics Of Glaciers

Glacier is formed of ice in various stages of transformation from snow to ice.  Glaciers form at high elevations from large snowfall and low temperatures, slowly move downward by the pressure of their weight and melt away at lower end.  At about 8,000 feet in early spring, cross section of glacier from top to bottom shows: new snow, old snow, solid neve from previous year, grainy ice, solid ice.  Higher up there will be relatively more snow and neve; lower down there will be relatively more ice.

Downward movement of ice over and around irregularities in its bed causes crevasses; cracks don't usually form in ice fields where there is no movement.  The junction of 2 glaciers is generally well-crevassed.

Types and locations of Typical Crevasses:

1.  Bergschrund forms at the top of glacier where moving ice pulls away from ice and snow attached to the rock walls of the glacier cirque; usually large and deep.

2.  Marginal crevasses are formed at edge of glacier because ice in center moves faster than ice on sides.  Normally these are not large and run diagonally upstream from edge of glacier. Crevasses form at right angles to glacier movement.

3.  Longitudinal crevasses run up and down glacier; usually found on top of longitudinal ridges in the glacier; infrequent occurrence.

4.  Transverse crevasses run crossways of glacier; usually found on top of humps or ridges of glacier; frequent occurrence and sometimes very large; probably the most dangerous type.

5.  Seracs are ice pinnacles formed by intersection of lateral and longitudinal crevasses.  Usually found in ice falls.

6.  When glacier passes over a steep drop in its bed, an ice fall is formed with all types of crevasses.

7.  When glacier goes around a curve in its bed, numerous crevasses of many kinds may be expected.

8.  Ice wells and ice caves sometimes found at lower terminus, caused by melting.

Remember that the glacier doesn't know that there are any rules about crevasses and will crack wherever a mechanical stretching action occurs.  Safest rule: expect any kind of a crevasse anywhere; use close observation to select your path.  Crevasses are bridged with snow during the winter, because of wind action forming cornices on the crevasse edges.  Bridge is weak at first when snow is powdery, stronger after it becomes thicker, and stronger still after much thawing and freezing in the spring have converted the powder snow to crust, then progressively weaker toward the summer as it becomes thinner and finally collapses from thawing.  Slope of a glacier may be as much as 45 degrees above the bergschrund and over ice falls; may be as flat as 1 degree.  Skiing not practical when slopes exceed 35 degrees.

Moraines are accumulations of rock debris on the edges (lateral moraines and terminal moraine) and possibly the center of the glacier (medial moraine).  Crevasses are nearly as frequent on medial moraines as on glacier.  Lateral moraines are safer.

Sources Of Danger To Skiers On A Glacier

Fall into a concealed crevasse (relatively frequent occurrence).

Fall into a crevasse whose presence is known by reason of the collapse of weak snow bridge (relatively rare occurrence).

Fall into crevasse because of snow collapsing when skier stands too close to edge (rare).

Uncontrolled slide down steep slope into crevasse.

Caught in avalanche from steep slopes above, or one started by yourself.

Caught by fall of serac (very rare).

Caught by bad weather - get lost and freeze.

Frequency Of Fatal Accidents To Glacier Skiers

Arnold Lunn states the following figures for twenty-five years of Glacier Skiing in the Alps:

Total killed by falls in crevasses - 9; on the ascent, unroped - 4; on the ascent, roped - 2; on the descent, unroped - 2; cause unstated - 1.  Apparent that had rope been properly used, crevasse accidents would have been limited to 3 at the most, out of probably several thousand glacier skiers.

Methods Of Avoiding Dangers On A Glacier

Avalanches must be avoided by means discussed elsewhere.

Fall of seracs is uncertain and infrequent; beware in hot weather, and watch for poor foundations, or tottery condition.

Concealed crevasses can frequently be recognized by slight depressions of the snow over the crevasss, by slight discolorations, or inferred extensions of visible crevasses under the snow.  Test for concealed crevasses by plumbing with ice axe or reversed ski pole; detour around them, unless you are anxious to make the "falling body" test for the strength of snow bridges.

Falls into crevasses, visible or concealed must be limited to short, harmless drops by proper use of rope.

Uncontrolled slides down steep slopes can be limited by use of rope and belay from partner, ice axe or ski-tail anchors, and arrest of slide by use of ice axe pick.

Never bunch the party.

Never allow more than one on a snow bridge at a time.

Don't attempt to ski on ice - use crampons.

If weather turns foggy take compass bearings and mark route.

Turn back if weather gets worse.  Avoid being caught on glacier in storm.

How To Tie On The Rope

Use 7/16" or 1/2" Manila Climbing Rope.

For downhill skiing, skiers spaced 60' to 100' apart,  Only two on rope.

For uphill skiing, skiers spaced 40' to 100' apart.

Tie single loop around waist with bowline, or double loop around waist with bowline-on-bight.  One loop over shoulder not recommended.  Waist loop as loose as possible, but must not slip over hips or shoulders.

Tie half hitch or two for safety in front of the bowline.

Using Prusik knots, tie two rope slings to the rope in front of waist loop knot; for use in crevasse rescue, anchors, and belays.  Pass the loose ends of slings down through your waist loop, tie loosely around waist or stick them through belt, or in pocket.  Keep one sling in hip pocket (extra).

Fundamentals Of Roped Glacier Skiing

Always keep the slack out of the rope in order:

1.  To limit possible falls to 3 or 4 feet.

2.  To prevent "Falling Body" from gaining speed, causing severe jerk on rope which may break rope or the victim's ribs.

3.  To aid in preventing rope entanglement with ski tips. 

Do not carry a coil of the climbing rope in your hand.

Party must travel so that there is no danger that two members may fall in same crevasse; this means that rope should be at right angles to line of crevasses.

Do not use an old, worn rope.

Always expect a break through - then you won't be surprised.

Remember, when you put on the rope, it's for safety.  Don't nullify the safety angle by skiing at high speed.

Go slow - if the leader of your rope falls in, you will have a better chance to stop the rope.

Always ski in control.

Roped Skiing - Uphill - Easy Terrain

Walk uphill as in ordinary skiing, all following leader's pace. Only difficulty comes in turns.  Skiers following in same track will cause slack in rope after the first man kick turns and starts new traverse.  To prevent this, all skiers stop together at same time, and kick turn in order, top man first, then each starts out on new track.  In certain cases this is impossible and special attention must be given to avoid slack in rope.  Two on rope is easiest, and safe enough in easy terrain.

Roped Skiing - Downhill - Easy Terrain

Two on the rope is the most practical, three on rope is safer.

Man in front should be the poorest skier of the party, last man the best.

The last man on the rope is the leader, and gives orders when to turn, stop, slow down, etc.

The party proceeds slowly, under complete control, all turning at once, where possible.  If skiers do not turn at same time, slack will form in rope with resultant jerking.

Some jerklng on the rope is inevitable, and frequently leads to bad tempers - be careful of yours.

After a jerk, the first man should speed up a trifle, last man slow down a trifle, otherwise slack will form in the rope again, leading to another jerk.  The rope may be parallel to the fall line, be horizontal or diagonal, depending on the lay of the crevasses.

First man skis normally, pole in each hand, follows leader's instructions as to pace, route, etc.

Second and last man put both poles in one hand, use the other to flip rope away from ski tips.

Party moves much more slowly than on practice hill of same slope - for safety's sake.

Roped Skiing On Dangerous Terrain - Both Uphill And Downhill

Should be three on rope for safety, or better yet, 2 ropes of 2 staying close together.

All skiers ski with ice axe in one hand, one or both ski poles in the other. Some prefer to put ski poles in pack, use axe only.

Only one man moves at a time, slowly and steadily, ready at all times to arrest a slip with his ice axe. First man across a slope should make a good track.

Other members on rope anchor themselves, one or two giving a belay to the moving man.

Several types of anchors and belays, as follows:

1. Fasten sling or rope loop to ice axe, thrust axe in snow up to head, give shoulder belay to moving partner.

2. Sit on slope, thrust tails of skis in snow up to foot, give hip belay to partner. Rope to partner passes between skis.

3. Sit astride lower lip of crevasse or ice ridge, give hip belay to partner.

4. Belay rope around serac or ice pinnacle.

5. Belay rope around ice axe thrust in snow, with knee helping keep axe down. Not recommended if snow is powdery or soft.

When giving a belay, brace yourself against the direction from which the strain will come.

Don't rely on ice axe anchor or ski tail anchor unless snow is firm.

If there are only "x" feet between the belay and the danger spot, the moving skier must not advance more than "x" feet from his belay, then anchor and bring his partner forward.

Special Problems In Roped Skiing

1. Going downhill cross narrow bridge thus: No. 1 anchors and gives a strong belay to No. 2, who approaches in line of bridge with strong stem; when he gets to bridge, pulls skis together, runs bridge straight without braking, makes controlled fall or quick stop turn on lower side. On gentle slopes no belay needed, both skiers keeping on the move. Once across, best belay No. 1 can give to No. 2 is to proceed downslope, keeping slack out of rope, while No. 2 runs bridge. Going uphill cross bridge thus: No. 1 crosses bridge with sidestep or herringbone, being careful not to stamp skis hard for fear of breaking bridge, while No. 2 remains on lower side, giving strong belay. Once across No. 1 anchors, gives belay while No. 2 crosses, or proceeds slowly upslope if terrain easy, keeping taut rope on No. 2.

2. Narrow bridge over one crevasses with open crevasse just downslope and parallel to first. Going downhill proceed as in (1), except that No. 1 stops at lower end of bridge (across crevasse), anchors and belays partner across. Going uphill, proceed exactly as in (1).

3.  Zig-zag path through interfingering ends of crevasses - going downhill danger lies in fact that skiers can't turn together.  Resultant slacking and jerking of rope handled badly may jerk skiers into crevasse.  Party reduces speed, gives careful attention to rope so that under no conditions will the rope tend to pull No.  2 into one of the crevasses.  Last man should travel as close to the lower lips of crevasses as possible.  If conditions are bad enough, skiers move one at a time with belays.  Going uphill, skiers carefully keep slack out of rope, using anchors and belays when necessary. 
[/quote]

Later subsections include:

Strength of Snow Bridges
Crevasse Rescue
Use of Ice Axe in Glacier Skiing
Required Preparation for Glacier Skiing
Additional Equipment for Glacier Skiing
Route Finding on Glacier
Glacier Skiing Questions

I haven't transcribed these because they are less interesting and this post is long enough already. The following subsection, on the other hand, is interesting in light of this discussion thread:


When To Put On The Rope

Always use the rope when on a glacier, unless it is absolutely certain that no crevasses exist. Some recommend taking chances on unroped skiing in order to get more fun. Chances of breaking through in April and May are slim, but only an expert who knows what he is doing should accept even a small risk.
[/quote]

I had thought the reason the Cascades had a long history of few skier crevasse problems because of the maritime snowpack -- when really it was because so many took Walt's course.

I like the logic of his approach: He believes that skiing on a glacier is significantly risky -- therefore ski downhill roped, and learn to get good at it.

Ken

The history was interesting Lowell. Good stuff.

KenR,

I believe if everyone roped up on descents down glaciers, there would be more issues because of that. To me, for the amount of people that ski on glaciers, the risk is minimal when going downhill. Your comparrison to avalanches doesn't hold for me. People die in avalanches all the time. Crevasse falls for people skiing down a glacier, such as mentioned in Lowell's piece are likely from people skiing into them, rather than bridge collapses. A safety measure then would be to watch where one is skiing rather than having a rope. I could only imagine a 100 people skiing down the CD route on Baker (saw that many last time I was there), all with ropes. This would be more of a danger than a safety measure in my opinion. I think of rope clusters on Hood and can only imagine the stupidity that would ensue with noobs skiing roped up, among the few who could maybe make it passable for skiing. How many people have died ski mountaineering in washington??? I can think of a few, sadly one in the past month. But take out avi, there are very few who have fallen, taken a crevasse fall and died, or other such dangers. All I'm saying is that skiing roped would cause more troubles that gains, and I think that would be the case no matter how good you are at it. 

All this being said, there are glaciers I've been on that would be wise to rope up on, even on the descent, but better I wasn't in those places at all. Kind of like going and skiing an avi prone slope. You take your own risks then.

Mostly I wanted to clarify my thoughts Ken and maybe understand your thoughts a bit more. Not to confuse either traveling up on glaciers. This is where I agree with you somewhat.  I think roping up on glaciers in early winter and early spring is often important. Even though I often don't, it isn't a decision I take lightly, ever. I know and understand the consequence. Many times I turn around on climbs because of dangers such as glaciers, etc. Risk management is part of any activity I do in the outdoors. As ski mountaineers we must become excellent risk managers. I weight them out in consideration to everything that can befall me, not by the mere possibility that an activity may or may not save me, such as using a rope. Time, weather, snow, rockfall, icefall. All of these concern me. I try to limit all of them where it makes sense.

BTW, Ken M...glad you are safe.

Lowell, thanks for digging up all that historical context. Strange how a 1940's text has far more to say about it than anything around today! Does Martin Volken's guide have a section?

Lowell, nice history lesson!  Thanks Jason too, great perspective on this topic and well worded.  Very interesting how they emphasized the "command" aspect of the last skier and the teamwork with rope movement and overall team travel.  I like the emphasis as sometimes I feel people forget there is a team aspect to mountaineering as well as the individual challenge.  Good points.  As we're getting into this a bit, does anyone know what kinds of glacier (ski) techniques were used before the 40's?  I'm impressed with the cohones of the early pioneers of our sport...and DEFINITELY happy about the advancement in rope technology (dynamic, 9mm, dry)!

(I love "working" on this website...lol)

author=korup link=topic=10137.msg40993#msg40993 date=1212163520">
Lowell, thanks for digging up all that historical context. Strange how a 1940's text has far more to say about it than anything around today! Does Martin Volken's guide have a section?


Martin's handbook has a lot of information about glacier travel and roping, but it is broken up into several places throughout the book--for example transitions, roped uphill travel, and belayed skiing. I don't think there is a discussion of roped downhill skiing on glaciers. (The section on belayed downhill skiing is oriented toward steeps, not crevasse hazard.) The key paragraphs that address the issues raised in this thread seem to be on p. 188, "Transitions from Unroped to Roped Travel in Glaciated Terrain":


Going from unroped to roped travel is another tricky topic, and the proper execution of this judgment call is completely situational.

Though it can be highly inefficient and unnecessary to rope up on glaciers while touring uphill, it is not wrong to do so. It can be tough to choose the right technique, expecially if there is crevasse-fall hazard in steep and potentially frozen terrain. For a complete discussion of roping up, see "Roped Travel" in chapter 6.

If you're transitioning from unroped to roped travel in a downhill skiing situation, be prepared to reduce your speed downhill. Roped skiing technique has to be impeccable, flawlessly coordinated, and you must be aware of the limited holding power you have in the event of a fall (expecially in hard-snow conditions)--gravity will be working against you. Navigating crevasse-fall hazard in downhill mode can be very tricky. Skiing downhill while roped is most often done with each person snowplowing or sideslipping. Also see "Advanced Skiing Techniques: Skiing on Belay" in chapter 7.


For what it's worth, here are some notes on the first complete ski descent of Mt Rainier in 1948. Chuck Welsh, the leader of that trip, was a graduate of Walt Little's second ski mountaineering course in 1942-43. The techniques described in his trip report are right out of Walt's textbook:


Cliff Schmidtke, Dave Roberts, Kermit Bengtson and the author left the cabin in Glacier Basin at 1 am and climbed to Camp Curtis. Conditions were good for climbing on skis over the next 3000 feet, but higher hard snow prompted all but Dave Roberts to switch to crampons. Roberts continued on skis all the way to the crater rim. They dropped skis and crossed to the summit register by 2 pm. On the descent they skied two to a rope, each man carrying a ski pole in one hand and an ice axe in the other. Down the first 2,000 feet of icy snow, they frequently moved one at a time, the stationary man giving a running ice-axe pick belay. Lower, the snow softened and they entered clouds before rejoining their support party at Camp Curtis.


I should clarify that I'm not arguing that one or the other approach is right or wrong here. I just think it's interesting to understand how we got to where we are today, and what some of the options are.

As I read this I keep remembering the trip report (though I can't remember the peak) where Sky K (Sj), (Cascade bad ass hardman deluxe), is on roped belay as he starts down the slope.

While on glaciers, skiing or otherwise, I am always conscious of avoiding the natural convivial tendency to form a group (herd) when stopped. If you are over a hidden crevasse, 6 people standing on top of it is spooky. Keep your distance!

I would assume this might be a bigger issue for snowboarders who, at least at the resorts, herd up like walruses...!

Those who survive are masters of risk calculation or are fortunate to have survived regardless of their ignorance of inherent danger.

author=korup link=topic=10137.msg40993#msg40993 date=1212163520]
Lowell, thanks for digging up all that historical context. Strange how a 1940's text has far more to say about it than anything around today! Does Martin Volken's guide have a section?

Yes Lowell, thanks for taking the time to post the history.

uphill roped on skis?  Martin Volken's book does have a page which addresses that. Along with some helpful details about how and why, the book says "it can be a tricky decision". It definitely does not say to always rope up when skiing up on a glacier.

I think the reason more is not written about glacier travel on skis is that it's a tricky subject, and it's hard to come up with simple rules - (or rather, simple rules that real backcountry skiers will actually follow nowadays).
Crevasse-bridge risk for skiers has not been researched as much as avalanche risk, since lots more skiers (especially lots more skiers paying money), and lots more towns and roads, are exposed to avalanche risk than crevasse risk. So we just don't have as good models for crevasse-bridge risk.

I did find one page of specific advice with a google search on "ski roped glacier".

German language stuff probably has more about it. Like the intro by Reinhard Klappert to his "Westalpen Skitourenfuehrer" guidebook has two pages titled "Mit Seil am Gletscher -- Ja oder Nein?", which I'm not going to try to translate.

Ken

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may-4-2008-the-cautionary-whale
Ken M
2008-05-20 21:51:32