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Topic: May 4-6, 2008, Mt Rainier, Fuhrer Thumb + Survival (Read 46426 times)
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Alan Brunelle
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But in all the discussion here, why such a heavy emphasis on technology? Even with the phone contact Amar managed, technology did him no good. The chopper had to abort. Perhaps if he weren't waiting for the rangers, he would've been more focussed to descend quicker that morning? GPS doesn't know where crevasses are; neither do radios. Self-reliance is the only answer in the wild.
Since I am the first to have brought up the issue of a radio, I guess I will answer this point.
First of all there is very little "heavy" emphasis on technology in this thread so far. I am certain that no one who has posted so far would suggest that any form of technology is the full solution to backcountry troubles. Nor would most want it to be. Otherwise were would all be taking sight seeing tours of the mountains instead of hoofing it.
Remember, Amar is the one who spent some time in his original post regarding the use of his cell phone. This is a very pertinent point because a lot of people believe that their cell phone is a great link to the outside world when the head into the mountains.
I think Amar posted for a number of reasons and certainly would have expected some suggestions to a help him and others in the future. He seems to be taking the suggestions to heart graciously, I would hope all the readers do so as well.
Your point is well taken with me, though. I remember on a climbing trip (long ago) sitting near the trail at the base of the crags, when two "climbers" probably in their early 20s walked by. They had tons of gear, all brand new without a scratch on it, probably purchased the night before at REI. Upon heading down the trail I noted to my party how odd it was when I saw in the distance what I thought was these two on a climb. The lead was on a very long rising traverse, probably out more than 50ft. from his partner, carrying all that new gear. Problem was he wasn't placing any of it. Some time after we passed we heard the fall. It was a very long fall, he hit his head on a ledge below before continuing to fall. Luckily he wore a helmet, but he was still hurt pretty bad.
Alan
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skykilo
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Perhaps I misused heavy; that's my personal bias creeping into my post because I hate carrying anything I deem unnecessary.
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LeeL
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Sky - i was just answering Amar's question.
The situation I was thinking where a radio would be very useful was when I was into day 2 of a planned 4 day traverse. We were pinned down by weather. I wanted to tent and stick it out for another couple of days and we had enough food and gas and fuel to do so. But we had no means of alerting the outside world that all was well.
Having the radio and being able to tell someone that we're just fine would have been nice - I don't want SAR to come out for me. I don't want my wife or parents or family to worry about me if I'm fine and dandy in a tent holed up somewhere.
As it was we bailed early as I didn't want a search triggered or family to worry. A radio would have helped there.
Later that month I researched and bought the Vertex's. I find them really useful when communicating with people out of line of sight in couloirs - eg are you clear of run-out and all that other stuff I used to yell
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Garth_Ferber
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Amar - wow wow wow. I only finally saw your post late this morning. So glad to hear you and Hannah make it out ok. I can imagine your concern and then relief over your partner. Congrats for keeping your head and getting down ok. You have given us a lot to chew on. I think party separations can happen more easily than many of us realize. It seems there is nothing more grounding than the notion that one might die soon. Thanks for the thorough write up and the comments of all.
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ash_j
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GPS doesn't know where crevasses are But GPS can know where you knew crevasses were when you could see where you were going, within a reasonable level of accuracy (provided that it was on during the ascent). It is a lot easier to follow a GPS track than a ski track in a whiteout. But that may not be what skiing is about. 
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Buke
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Amar, as all of the others have said, thanks for sharing your story and I'm glad it all worked out in the end. It's certainly made me think about how I would handle that situation. I hope that I could stay as level headed as you did. Also, It's good to see the TAY crowd go back and forth and have good discussion.
I agree with Sky on both points, it seems like there has been a lot of talk about technological solutions. Further, I don't want to point fingers and talk about would I would've done, but it seems like had Amar been roped to his partner then they wouldn't have gotten separated and what became an epic could have likely been an uneventful walk off in crappy weather. I know that's been said before but maybe not in quite the same way.
I wonder how many climbers venture up Rainier without skis and forgo roping up? I haven't done too much mountaineering but I was always under the impression that everyone ropes up on glaciers unless they're soloing. I certainly do, even when it's probably not necessary (South side of Mt Hood comes to mind). It seems like the standard of practice in the ski mountaineering community is, 'when in skis, don't rope up' (maybe I'm wrong about that). Certainly descending on skis while roped isn't an option and completely defeats the purpose but I'd like to know how many of you use a rope while skiing, what the circumstances are and what your reasoning is?
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russ
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Amar - while you beat yourself up for the mistakes, don't loose sight of the good decisions and experienced judgments that led to surviving. Thanks for sharing in such detail, so we can all add to our bag of survival tricks. You never know when passing on your information/experience could end up saving someone else. - Russ
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jessicaj
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That's the most well written trip report/incident report I've read. I learned a lot from it. Glad your ski partner forgave you and that you both made it out. An awesome ski partner is hard to come by....
Thanks for sharing!
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Telemon
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One recently introduced piece of technology that may have come in handy to signal for rescue is the SPOT Satellite Personal Tracker. It works where cells fail in North America. Fortunately I haven't had to use the Help or 911 features on mine yet, but I know that my family was comforted by the OK messages that I sent from it while traveling around the country in April.
The Tr was a great read, Amar. You might want to submit it to Explore or Outside magazines .
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Git down, Brothers and Sisters of the Church of the Telemark..What do you mean it is a turn not a religion?
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Lowell_Skoog
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In his book "Extreme Alpinism," Mark Twight writes about how you need to be extra careful about weather on a light and fast ascent. In his first chapter he writes, "Depending on the margin of safety, the slightest potential problem with weather or psyche could mandate retreat..." This seems like a good idea to keep in in mind, especially if you're used to pushing through marginal conditions during "heavy and slow" climbs. When you have little backup and you're trying to move fast, be prepared to retreat fast if conditions deteriorate from the ideal.
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« Last Edit: 05/10/08, 07:30 AM by Lowell_Skoog »
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skierlyles
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Again, I would like to echo the words of the many posters preceding me- WOW!
Thanks for sharing and yes, I do appreciate the courage to share such a remarkable story with the community, it is why I keep reading the posts on this site and not others- there is always so much more you can learn. Thanks for teaching a newbie thru your eloquent reenactment of words. Your story has inspired me to buy a bivy, which I bought tonight and plan on using in a non- emergency situation, but I sure will be prepared for the worst.
Again, thanks for sharing and spreading the word of wiser mortals than myself.
Chris
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Zap
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Amar, I agree with Telemon's comment about submitting the story to various publications: Backcountry,... plus various media/broadcasting outlets. Think outside the backcountry skiing community. In fact being an ole marketing guy, you might be surprised with the interest expressed by some product manufacturers whose products were helpful during the event. Most of us have read or attended presentations by individuals retelling their experiences of some tragic event.
I have forwarded your TR to a few friends who are not backcountry skiers/riders and all of them have responded about the quality of the writing. The photos add to the readers experience. The trip had a "happy ending" and there is a lot of valuable insight in the story.
My only request is that you don't give up your day job and please remember the little people before you became famous. 
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kmcb
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Yeah Amar, don't give up that day job!! Good to see you both the other night; glad you're safe.
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Double E
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Wow. Just wow.
Fascinating, inspiring, scary, gripping, sobering, educational, trip report.
Glad you two are OK.
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Scotsman
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Climbing Magazine runs an EPICS issue every year . It think Amar's TR would make a worthy contribution. You should submit it as the other's have said.
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JW
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I heard about your adventure the other night but hadn't had time to read it. Well told Amar....glad you two are safe. Maybe we should climb back up there with my video camera and do one of those cheesy re-enactments  .... again glad your safe ... Jerry
PS... I have Motorola radios and use lithium AA's... they work great ...four to six ski days per set with the radios on for the trip.
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"You keep skiing, I'll keep filming"
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Amar Andalkar
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Trying to get some closure on this week's events, I headed up to Camp Muir for a quick afternoon ski run on Friday, May 9. It was important for me to get back on the Mountain as soon as possible, and Friday had the best weather forecast of the week. Left the parking lot at 2pm, at Muir by 4:20pm--it's nice to be fit, light, and well-acclimated, I'd never skinned up in under 3 hours before. Sunny, calm, and beautiful weather.
Skinning up the Muir Snowfield. | 
Looking upward at the summit dome, my home on Monday night. |
Hung out for a couple of hours and talked to various climbers, including a guided team of 7 which descended through Cathedral Gap just before 5pm. They had summited via Ingraham Direct, and the route is now well-wanded, but still has several sketchy crevasse crossings and the guides think it may not go much longer. I asked them if there were any entries in the summit register the past few days, and they said none since May 6, so apparently they were the first climbers to summit since me. I asked what they thought of that entry, and the guides remarked that it was very interesting. They realized my questions were odd, so I revealed that I had written the entry. It turns out one of the guides had taken a photo of the entry, and he offered to email it to me after he gets off the mountain. They'd already heard about the incident from other guides and climbing rangers, and wanted details, so I filled them in a bit.
Rope teams descending through Cathedral Gap,
after summiting via Ingraham Direct. | 
Evening light on the Mountain. |
Skied down just after 6pm. The snow was remarkably good, a bit crusty up high (would have been perfect an hour earlier), but mostly nice corn, even below Pan Point and all the way down to just a couple hundred feet above the parking lot before it got mushy. It was an awesome experience to look up at the Mountain and relive the events of only a few days earlier, and to appreciate its power with a deeper degree of respect than ever before.
NOTE: also posted as a separate TR for easier searching in the future: May 9, 2008, Mt Rainier, Muir Snowfield
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« Last Edit: 05/10/08, 12:51 PM by Amar Andalkar »
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Jim Oker
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Thanks for sharing your experience, Amar.
I suspect most if not all of us would have total confidence in you as a partner due to your obvious ability to keep it together throughout such an ordeal.
It's always tempting, upon reading such an account, to say "but I wouldn't have done this or that, so I don't think that would happen to me." E.g with the "Gooch Epic on Baker" (I didn't live here then, but a pal claims that despite what Gooch has written, the forecast was for a significant storm coming in - seemed somewhat predictable*; plus this pal had climbed a bit with Gooch beforehand but quit due to concerns about widely different approaches to risk management), or the story (also from the early '90s) of those Aspen skiers who were heading to a hut towards Pearl Pass who ended up rescued by snowmobilers near Taylor Reservoir, if memory serves (horrible group dynamic, other apparent errors). I've only skied with you once (with Silas up at the Pass last winter), but I was impressed with your approach to risk and overall trip management, even on that wimpy tour. So it's harder to come up with a deflection strategy for your story. JD-Climber's notions of concsiously thinking about cascade of broken "rules" (guidelines?) strikes me as a great risk managment technique, but nevertheless, for me, your story strongly reinforces jd's comments on odds of epics and Sky's comments on the importance of self-reliance.
Strong second to Zap's comments on making some hay with the story now that you've survived.
* [edited to add:] I don't know one way or another which account of the forecast for this old incident is correct, so my point is not to pass judgment on the Gooch party, but rather to note my own (and I suspect many others') tendency to say "not me" when I read accounts of noteworthy epics or accidents.
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« Last Edit: 05/10/08, 09:26 PM by Jim Oker »
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ash_j
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Ash_j, yes, weather was a factor, but only one factor. In some ways, the stage was set for the weather.
Using Amar's experience as fodder for this discussion, weather would have been fatal if Amar were climbing in a Speedo. Why did he have other clothing, because he wanted a margin of safety provided by extra clothing.
Had he perished in a Speedo, due to hypothermia, would we blame the weather?
The same logic can be applied to what went right and what went wrong.
Well, weather can be fatal no matter what one chooses to wear. But I suppose I misspoke if it sounds like I said that weather was the only factor. Of course, logically, the only 'rule' that will guarantee that you won't have a problem on a climbing trip is not to go on the climbing trip at all.
Yes, it is overly simplified to believe that a set of rules will keep you safe in the mountains.
However, I believe that one needs a system of some sort to assist in evaluating when a person is "hanging it out" more and more. A set of guidelines, in my opinion assists in evaluating risk. The idea is not to follow all rules, it is to know when you are breaking them, and making sure you are comfortable/able to accept the outcome, knowing that each broken rule increases your risk factors. Yes I think we're mostly on the same page here. I think it is all about being dynamically aware of one's weaknesses and exposure. These are constantly changing and always situation-dependent. I think that the danger in expecting any given set of rules to apply for longer than an instant, is that faith in a static set of rules can and does lead to insensitivity to the dynamic nature of moving through a risky environment. 'Rules' can be good mnemonics, but there is always the risk that they will replace actual thought to a lesser or greater extent. One need only consider the common misconceptions that many mountain-hikers have about the use and efficacy of rope, and the tragic accidents that have been compounded by such misconceptions. I would argue that this is an example of where the adherence to a rule ('always rope up' ) encourages some climbers to simply obey the rule without thinking critically, which sometimes leads to tragic mistakes due either to overconfidence while roped, or accidents caused or aggravated directly by the rope itself. If roping up were not promoted as a 'rule,' then new climbers would instead be forced to figure out for themselves just how and when a rope will be useful for them, and also when it will present its own risks. If done wisely, this self-enlightenment (by which I don't mean to preclude learning technical and judgmental skills from experts) should make them 'safer' and more effective climbers in the end. Then if/when problems occur, the useful lessons to be learned are about the specific thought processes and choices made that led to an unexpected situation, potentially including but certainly not limited to whether a standard protocol was followed.
ps. I'm not trying to be antagonistic or anything, I just find it interesting to mull over this stuff once in a while.
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« Last Edit: 05/10/08, 07:15 PM by ash_j »
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Boot
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Amar and Hannah, thank you for responding to the couple of questions I had. I hope you realize my query about going down the DC or Ingraham was not a "what you should have done" comment. I was exploring what my own decision path may have been in that scenario and you hit the nail on the head with the comment about route familiarity. Having done the Fuhrer and DC it may have been a toss-up, with the familiarity of going down what I just climbed up maybe having the edge, unless I felt strongly there would be somebody headed up the DC that day. Anyway, good to hear Hannah's story, glad you got back up yesterday, and very happy I was able to make you both laugh a bit about it (I still say one good slug with a "don't ever do that again" is helpful; seems it makes us guys remember stuff like that better )
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James Wells
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I hope you realize my query about going down the DC or Ingraham was not a "what you should have done" comment.
I don't think anyone is saying "what [Amar] should have done". The past is done - the reason to explore hypotheticals is entirely forward looking. Patterns emerge and they are extremely valuable in helping future trip planning. I assume that a big reason for the extremely detailed TR is to promote safety discussion and learning, and to that end the TR is a really valuable service.
If someone comes to believe, for instance, that both party members having a radio that was verified to be operating would have mitigated the situation, then that's a potentially useful interpretation. It's one data point. If you keep reading incident reports and keep making that same interpretation in other cases, take the hint. It means that for your approach and style, radios are a good idea.
A while ago I read the compendium of all avalanches in Canada from 1984 to 1996 at http://avalancheinfo.net/Newsletters%20and%20Articles/Articles/AvalancheAccidentsV4.pdf (big link 8 MB). After reading and interpreting every incident report, I concluded that wearing a ski helmet would have saved a significant number of lives (especially if they also basic avy gear as well). For my approach and style, a ski helmet is now mandatory. It's not a statement about people or events in the past, just going-forward planning.
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Rusty Knees
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And at least I lost some weight during the trip: From the morning of May 3 through this afternoon on May 7, my weight has decreased from 144.4 lbs to 140.0, with body fat decreasing from 14.9% to 12.3%. This equals a loss of 4.3 lbs of body fat, which would supply about 17000 calories, and luckily it appears that I managed not to burn a significant amount of muscle mass. That would have changed for sure had I been forced to spend longer up there with no more food.
Wow -4.3lbs of body fat in a couple of days. I think you'll be invited on Oprah, and shortly after that we'll be seeing a rash of celebrities on the "Amazing Amar Fumarale Diet".
So glad you both survived! What a great story - I agree with many others - your writing is gripping, and I think it's publishable. Very inspiring in that what you lacked in gear you made up for with knowledge and good instincts. Thanks for sharing it with us.
Don
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The best part of summer skiing is napping on a warm rock.
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Amar Andalkar
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I asked them if there were any entries in the summit register the past few days, and they said none since May 6, so apparently they were the first climbers to summit since me. I asked what they thought of that entry, and the guides remarked that it was very interesting. They realized my questions were odd, so I revealed that I had written the entry. It turns out one of the guides had taken a photo of the entry, and he offered to email it to me after he gets off the mountain.
Thanks to Jeff Street for sending me this photo of my summit register entry. I was worried that I might have written something too embarrassing to post, but it looks OK. I think the entry gives some more insight into my state of mind on the summit, and how uncertain my situation still was, only 2-3 hours before I eventually skied down on my own.
(Click to enlarge.)
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Larry_R
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Amar and Hannah,
I'm so glad that you both escaped a potentially awful situation. These sorts of things make me realize that TAY is a community that cares about one another.
Larry
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« Last Edit: 05/17/08, 01:27 PM by Larry_R »
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peteyboy
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Thanks again Amar for such a thorough and selfless deconstruction of your saga. I want to compliment the community (as it pertains to those who've posted) for being so responsible, and respectful of Amar and Hannah, in participating in this important process. For good reason, we leave our "other lives" out of these chats, just like we do when we're in the mountains. However, I want to mention that since my other life is as an interventional cardiologist, I really appreciate your efforts here to let us all reflect through your experience and the questions and input of others so that each of us hopefully becomes a little less likely to make a life changing mistake in the future doing what we all love. In medicine, we call it "morbidity and mortality" - reviewing in conference format what went wrong whenever there is a bad outcome; the idea is that far fewer mistakes (bad things happening to patients) have to happen when we collectively learn from each individual bad outcome. Incidentally, those also typically are a chain of small errant decisions (or failure to recognize a piece of data for the decision-changer it is) leading up to an outcome change. It involves humility and soul baring, but everyone respects it for how we all benefit. I see that happening here, and it feels good.
A comment, and a question:
If you want to profit from the experience (and who could blame ya), sell your story to Outside or Time Warner or David Geffen; but know that your story will be changed so that you look reckless (because it sells copy) and you will be judged negatively by lay people who have no idea what they are talking about. If you want your story to reach a wider segment of the backcountry/ski mountaineering community, choose a much less profitable directed audience, like Backcountry Magazine and the Alpine Clubs of America and Canada. Although it's not an avalanche story, you would make a terrific and very important presentation at the Northwest Avalanche Summit next year.
The question is about something not discussed yet. How did you know the fumarole (or any fumarole) would be safe to stay in despite the absence of odor? We all know stories of people weathering storms in them, and people dying in them. Personally, I would have been too concerned about carbon monoxide poisoning to allow myself the lifesaving option you alertedly chose. Your knowledge of fumaroles is far greater than mine, so I'm interested to know.
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