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Hot Air => Random Tracks: posts that don't fit elsewhere => Topic started by: dfhkvs on 02/01/18, 04:27 PM



Title: MSH Permit Fiasco
Post by: dfhkvs on 02/01/18, 04:27 PM
Man, they basically broke the internet. Permit sales have been suspended until Feb 5th so the vendor can un-fubar things. Reportedly demand _blew away_ that from last year and earlier.

Dave.



Title: Re: MSH Permit Fiasco
Post by: PhilH on 02/02/18, 01:54 PM
...loved to death


Title: Re: MSH Permit Fiasco
Post by: dfhkvs on 02/02/18, 02:32 PM
Various news reports state that 3500 people tried to get permits on opening day in 2017. In 2018, the number was 11,000.

That's a bit sobering.

Dave.


Title: Re: MSH Permit Fiasco
Post by: haggis on 02/02/18, 03:23 PM
Midweek.


Title: Re: MSH Permit Fiasco
Post by: dfhkvs on 02/02/18, 03:44 PM
Nope. All of summer (may --> oct) was basically gone in a few hours, mid-week included.

Basically, anything pre-April (no permit limits) and you're good.

I've just marveled at the increases in usage of outdoor areas. Here in Oregon, the usage of Three Sisters Wilderness DOUBLED in the past 4 years. So, permits are coming our way for that area. There is no denying the over-use and resource damage.


D.


Title: Re: MSH Permit Fiasco
Post by: glenn_b on 02/02/18, 07:46 PM
Not sure why we should care too much about permits anyway.  Took a friend to Rainier last summer.  He had sent in request for a solo permit well beforehand.  When he presented himself at the ranger station, they had not "processed" his application and would not do it on the spot.  I advised him just to go for it which he did, successfully.  Later I tried to get a permit for MSH.  Totally sold out.  Went anyway, permitless, and was surprised by a largely vacant mtn.  So bag and carry off your shit.  That seems to be all they really care about.


Title: Re: MSH Permit Fiasco
Post by: Brett on 03/01/18, 10:09 AM
What is the fine if you're caught without a permit?


Title: Re: MSH Permit Fiasco
Post by: Skier of the Hood on 03/01/18, 07:12 PM
I believe the main problems have to do with the standard routes? Take an alternate way up and enjoy the solitude. Having a third party collect fees that don't actually go wholly towards addressing damage to the alpine ecosystem or for supporting climbing rangers or the like is a terrible mistake anyway. Mt Rainer peak taxes actually support climber activities or repairing the damage caused by them, Msh... not so much.


Title: Re: MSH Permit Fiasco
Post by: biker on 03/02/18, 10:07 AM
whats the last day to go without a permit?


Title: Re: MSH Permit Fiasco
Post by: snojones on 03/05/18, 07:18 AM
What the hell is MSH?


Title: Re: MSH Permit Fiasco
Post by: Charlie Hagedorn on 03/05/18, 07:26 AM
Quote from: snojones on 03/05/18, 07:18 AM
What the hell is MSH?


Mount St. Helens


Title: Re: MSH Permit Fiasco
Post by: powcarvin on 03/11/18, 05:27 PM
The advanced permit process is being abused. Users have been conditioned to shot gun the calendar well in advance reserving many dates with intention of using only one, if any based on personal schedule or favorable weather. This results in many unused permits. I see this as a growing trend in our parks and campgrounds. MRNP requires users to pick up reserved permits the day of or will be void with out refund and made available. I'm in favor of a first come permit process. You would actually have to get out from behind your computer to get one.


Title: Re: MSH Permit Fiasco
Post by: water on 03/12/18, 04:47 PM
I have been railing against the MSH permit process for years... I sometimes tire of it but will relay what I posted elsewhere with this debacle. Hopefully this issue has pushed enough buttons we might see some change for the future.

I fully agree online permit processes are abused and are almost utterly disconnected from practical use and application of the outdoors. Dog Mountain in the gorge, Obsidian and Pamelia Lake on Jefferson, Jeff Park lakeside camping permit (which the FS outright said did not mitigate damage as intended), Mount Margaret Backcountry (north of Mt. St. Helens).. etc..  people snatch up permits based on availability, no penalty for not using, and relative cheap cost. The solution is not to raise the prices...

Anyways here's goes RE: MSH permit:

background and course of action for those who find the current Mt. St. Helen's Permit process to be unacceptable:

The Mt. St. Helens Institute is the administrator of the permits. They take $5 from every permit for their educational outreach. $2 goes to DiscoveryNW to administer the online sale (or non-sale clusterfuck in this case).
The remainder goes to the Forest Service. This is the only permit in the entire Northwest that funds a private non-profit for the public's access to public lands.

The Mt. St. Helen's Institute brings in roughly $65,000-90,000 a year from the $5/permit revenue and other access to the mountain such as the Crater Glacier View Climb on the North side which can only be accessed by paying the MSHI $175 to go. Additionally they have a crater hike that is $700 a person. Over the last decade MSHI has taken $600k-900k from the public. Without a defined direct service to those who have involuntarily funded them while accessing public lands that their tax dollars pay to sustain and protect. For instance the Crater Glacier View Hike was scoped out by the FS at taxpayer expense, EIS done, consultation with tribes, etc, and was not open to public comment/purely administrative and worded in a way that there is no trigger for opening it up to the broader public. But MSHI has exclusive access to it, and you the public do too for $175.

I've got a huge problem with this private non-profit being the arbiter of access to public lands, and harvesting money from the public to access lands we already pay for. Notice I am not complaining about paying a forest service permit (though that it its own ball of wax.. that is not inherently an issue). But involuntarily funding a non-profit just so you can hike is questionable. Today it is a non-profit you might agree with. But tomorrow it might be a for profit company you do not. I simply have never accepted the precedent that MSHI needed to be involved with buying and selling permits. If they need funding they can apply for grants and sponsorships the way every other non-profit does.

Why recreation.gov has not taken this over and a private non-profit is a middle-man to skim money off the top, I do not know. But the person to contact follows

Tedd Huffman, the manager of the Mt. St. Helens National Volcanic Monument:
elhuffman@fs.fed.us
42218 N.E. Yale Bridge Rd.
Amboy, WA
98601
(360) 449-7800


Title: Re: MSH Permit Fiasco
Post by: Chamois on 03/14/18, 01:00 PM
Quote from: Skier of the Hood on 03/01/18, 07:12 PM
I believe the main problems have to do with the standard routes? Take an alternate way up and enjoy the solitude. Having a third party collect fees that don't actually go wholly towards addressing damage to the alpine ecosystem or for supporting climbing rangers or the like is a terrible mistake anyway. Mt Rainer peak taxes actually support climber activities or repairing the damage caused by them, Msh... not so much.


Anyone venturing above 4k feet elevation requires a permit.  You can take another way up but you are still in the permit pool.  I checked and from mid-May  thru mid-September there are no permits available.  They used to hold 10% for first-come-fist-serve the day of a climb, but this year they did away with that.  Supposedly because the website was such a cluster.  Not sure how the two correlate. 


Title: Re: MSH Permit Fiasco
Post by: water on 03/14/18, 01:22 PM
they haven't held 10% of permits for 1st-come-1st-serve for almost a decade....

new this year is actually having some percent of permits for the following month available on the last friday of the preceding month. Or at least that is what was announced prior to the debacle when they originally went on sale.


Title: Re: MSH Permit Fiasco
Post by: Chamois on 03/14/18, 02:39 PM
Thanks.  Hate this system.  Ok, it was 20 yrs ago, but we simply went down there, filled out a permit with pencil, slept on the road and then had a good day.  Would agree that total reservation by computer is non-committal and there should be some set-aside for day-of-climb pickup.


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