Mt. Rainier heavy-handed policing

Amar, I'm pretty sure I didn't miss that point. MY point (made in portions of my text that you chose not to quote) is that MRNP is taking a backwards and revenue-deletirous approach by corraling people at the exit and lecturing them.

If they issue tickets in the parking lot--at whatever time they see fit--that would have two effects: It would push people OUT of the park at a specific time (something they say they want); AND it would increase revenue (from parking tickets). This would pay for extra LEOs or extra whatevers.

While it's true that a Federal property doesn't answer to state or local governments, they do answer to their own user base. Obviously, the NPS is somewhat more intransigent than, say, the NFS, but focused user input can and will have an effect. The problem I see on this forum is that there is little agreement on anything having to do with MRNP, apart from some futile fist-shaking.

Is community fundraising for increased access like www.accesstheridge.org/ a relevant option here? I don't think I've ever seen it mentioned. It seems silly given that it's a primary use area for a very large region, but I don't see any other improvements happening.

Great to see that the current Interior Secretary is providing such fine oversight...

Due to budget issues (which may be partially their own fault based on priorities), they want to have only a single 8-hour 9am-5pm LE ranger shift assigned to cover that Longmire-Paradise area during the winter season (roughly November to April). Thus the 5pm closure time.

So what you're saying is that there is NO law enforcement in the park from 5pm to 9am? As far as I know they don't close a gate at the Nisqually entrance so that leaves the stretch between the entrance and Longmire accessible 24 hours a day....?

So what you're saying is that there is NO law enforcement in the park from 5pm to 9am? As far as I know they don't close a gate at the Nisqually entrance so that leaves the stretch between the entrance and Longmire accessible 24 hours a day....?

There's definitely no LE assigned to cover the stretch from Longmire-Paradise at night during this time of year, which is why it's gated closed. To cover the stretch from the entrance to Longmire, which must be kept open to the public 24/7 year-round due to hotel guests staying at Longmire National Park Inn (except rare storm closures), there clearly must be an LE on-call at all times, housed in park staff housing at either Longmire or at park headquarters in Tahoma Woods (a small parcel of NPS-purchased land located on SR 706 about 10 miles west of the Nisqually entrance, past even the town of Ashford, to which the park headquarters and some staff housing were moved from Longmire several decades ago).

In years past, however, they used to allow the road to be open all the way to Paradise with no LEs on duty anywhere in the park. How do I know this? On November 1, 2011, I put my car into the ditch for the first time ever in my life, driving downhill from Paradise, I hit a long stretch of black ice on the steepest part of the entire road at 4300 ft just between the two turnoffs for the Ricksecker Point viewpoint loop road. Despite being at only 20-25 mph in a 35 zone and in 4WD, I skidded into the right side ditch ending up with 3 tires off the road surface in the ditch and 1 in the air above the asphalt (sadly there was no snowbank yet to keep me out of the ditch). It turned out that the road surface was so slick with black ice that Microspikes were almost required to even walk on it safely.

With no cell service at all in that area and sunset approaching, I eventually flagged down the first passing car and got a ride to the Longmire Inn, where I called Park Dispatch and was informed that the nearest LE would have to drive up from park headquarters in Tahoma Woods (16 miles from Longmire). He eventually arrived almost half an hour later, recognized me immediately (we had once skied down from Muir together a couple of years earlier!), and we drove up the 7 miles to my car, but he was unable to pull me out with a tow strap since his park ranger SUV had no traction on the black ice either. He radioed for Eatonville Towing, which eventually came another hour-and-half later, and even the tow truck driver had to drive the front wheels of his tow truck off the road into the opposite side ditch, since he couldn't get enough traction on the slick ice-covered pavement to pull me out otherwise. An over $380 towing bill for the 5-minute winch out plus their 2-3 hours roundtrip driving time, which fortunately cost me nothing since I have AAA Plus which reimbursed it fully.

Anyway, that kind of scenario can no longer happen since the tragic shooting of January 1, 2012. The board of inquiry convened afterwards to investigate the incident recommended/required increased LE staffing, so the park will no longer leave the road open to Paradise without "adequate" LE staffing on-duty. Apparently, at least 2 LEs on-duty now appears to be the current minimum based on my own observations, versus 0 which was clearly OK at times during off-season low-visitation periods in previous years.

The lack of LE staffing is the reason that other roads in the park (White River Road, Sunrise Road, Mowich Lake Road) remain closed to the public for weeks after they are plowed in the spring. They can not be open to the public without "adequate" LE staffing assigned to cover that area or be on call for it. Again, that lack of staffing may be partially the park's own doing and fault based on priorities for where the budget is spent.

By the way, all of this info about LE staffing, etc., is based on various random conversations with park rangers that I know, including LEs. It is not official nor necessarily accurate in any way.

In years past, however, they used to allow the road to be open all the way to Paradise with no LEs on duty anywhere in the park.

Anyway, that kind of scenario can no longer happen since the tragic shooting of January 1, 2012. The board of inquiry convened afterwards to investigate the incident recommended/required increased LE staffing, so the park will no longer leave the road open to Paradise without "adequate" LE staffing on-duty. Apparently, at least 2 LEs on-duty now appears to be the current minimum based on my own observations, versus 0 which was clearly OK at times during off-season low-visitation periods in previous years.

I'm going to attempt to tap dance around this and say that I think it's an awful decision to curtail access and spend millions and millions of dollars to create the impression that this event won't ever happen again. Making changes this radical over an event that, while horrifically tragic, has occurred once in 110+ years of park history is, I believe wrong.

They can not be open to the public without "adequate" LE staffing assigned to cover that area or be on call for it. Again, that lack of staffing may be partially the park's own doing and fault based on priorities for where the budget is spent.

I most certainly got another earful of the usual (paraphrasing) "Our budget dollars are siloed: We can't spend our entire budget in any way we like." She specifically mentioned that concession revenue cannot be used to pay staff and that something like the Muir webcam (which I despise) may have been paid for by money that could only be spent on that specific thing. The former issue is, I think, particularly problematic relative to the climbing program, where the guide services account for about half of the climbing attempts, but the massive amount of money they pay the park every year can't be used to pay the ranger staff required to support them. Instead, that money has to come from climbing fees. The bottom line on this whole "siloed budget" issue is that it has always seemed a bit to conveniently setup for them to be victims of it "We HAD to put that webcam at Muir or we'd have lost that money", and I've also seen them bend the rule when it suits their purposes.

Lastly, if you got hassled at the gate and have not called in to report it, you are (bluntly) part of the problem. It's very easy for them to write me off as an outlying crank if I'm the only one who regularly feeds back to them.

So, can we blame the closure on you?

There's definitely no LE assigned to cover the stretch from Longmire-Paradise at night during this time of year, which is why it's gated closed. To cover the stretch from the entrance to Longmire, which must be kept open to the public 24/7 year-round due to hotel guests staying at Longmire National Park Inn (except rare storm closures), there clearly must be an LE on-call at all times, housed in park staff housing at either Longmire or at park headquarters in Tahoma Woods (a small parcel of NPS-purchased land located on SR 706 about 10 miles west of the Nisqually entrance, past even the town of Ashford, to which the park headquarters and some staff housing were moved from Longmire several decades ago).

In years past, however, they used to allow the road to be open all the way to Paradise with no LEs on duty anywhere in the park. How do I know this? On November 1, 2011, I put my car into the ditch for the first time ever in my life, driving downhill from Paradise, I hit a long stretch of black ice on the steepest part of the entire road at 4300 ft just between the two turnoffs for the Ricksecker Point viewpoint loop road. Despite being at only 20-25 mph in a 35 zone and in 4WD, I skidded into the right side ditch ending up with 3 tires off the road surface in the ditch and 1 in the air above the asphalt (sadly there was no snowbank yet to keep me out of the ditch). It turned out that the road surface was so slick with black ice that Microspikes were almost required to even walk on it safely.

With no cell service at all in that area and sunset approaching, I eventually flagged down the first passing car and got a ride to the Longmire Inn, where I called Park Dispatch and was informed that the nearest LE would have to drive up from park headquarters in Tahoma Woods (16 miles from Longmire). He eventually arrived almost half an hour later, recognized me immediately (we had once skied down from Muir together a couple of years earlier!), and we drove up the 7 miles to my car, but he was unable to pull me out with a tow strap since his park ranger SUV had no traction on the black ice either. He radioed for Eatonville Towing, which eventually came another hour-and-half later, and even the tow truck driver had to drive the front wheels of his tow truck off the road into the opposite side ditch, since he couldn't get enough traction on the slick ice-covered pavement to pull me out otherwise. An over $380 towing bill for the 5-minute winch out plus their 2-3 hours roundtrip driving time, which fortunately cost me nothing since I have AAA Plus which reimbursed it fully.

Anyway, that kind of scenario can no longer happen since the tragic shooting of January 1, 2012. The board of inquiry convened afterwards to investigate the incident recommended/required increased LE staffing, so the park will no longer leave the road open to Paradise without "adequate" LE staffing on-duty. Apparently, at least 2 LEs on-duty now appears to be the current minimum based on my own observations, versus 0 which was clearly OK at times during off-season low-visitation periods in previous years.

The lack of LE staffing is the reason that other roads in the park (White River Road, Sunrise Road, Mowich Lake Road) remain closed to the public for weeks after they are plowed in the spring. They can not be open to the public without "adequate" LE staffing assigned to cover that area or be on call for it. Again, that lack of staffing may be partially the park's own doing and fault based on priorities for where the budget is spent.

By the way, all of this info about LE staffing, etc., is based on various random conversations with park rangers that I know, including LEs. It is not official nor necessarily accurate in any way.

I have never worked for the NPS so I don't know the details of their budgeting procedures.  I have worked for 4 other federal agencies.  One thing I can tell you about the places I worked is that they were very safety conscious.  Safety was a part of superisors' performance reviews, and in many years, those review were reflected in pay.  It got to the point that any vehicle damage or on-the-job injury workmans' comp was paid out of the unit's budget (the feds are self-insured) as a means of reinforcing the need for safety.  One injury could decimate the budget of a unit of 5 or so people.  We had annual requirements for 1st aid and CPR and defensive driving courses every 3 years.  Also because of nefarious political appointees and elected officials we had annual ethics training and annual sexual harassment training.  And some jobs that used be done by solo employees were staffed so that there was always 2 people present for safety (example: night time work in the backcountry).  Finally, minor workplace abuses of the Fair Labor Standards Act for non-supervisory employees related to overtime and major abuses of higher level employees related to massive unpaid work resulted in lawsuits and changes in policy to follow the rules strictly.  So the "safe-keeping" aspects not only became very strict and rigid but also time consuming and expensive.

So, when LEO MA was murdered and when several hikers were lost and died, I am sure the supervisory reviews and the committe Amar mentioned had some very forceful restrictions put in place.  They will not change, not even with a change in leadership.

So, IMHO, there are two ways to improve recreational access and quality of recreational opportunities at MRNP.  First, lots of feedback to elected Representatives and Senators, including phone calls (there are numbers just for this), letters (these get delayed by weeks or month to check for anthrax), visits to local and D.C. offices, and organized events.  Second, an advisory committe to the park, made up of representives of the communities of interest can help the park set priorities, lobby Congress for new funds or changes in allocation of funds, and inform the press and the public about the situation.  Federal employees are prohibited from lobbying. The National Forests have province advisory committees for this purpose.

Anyhow, I don't see any of this happening, so just enjoy the park when you can.

Number one in my mind is that MNRP seems unaware of the new hazard for winter backcountry travellers posed by a 5pm gate closure. In years past they had closed access entirely for two days each week, in lieu of a 5pm curfew, and that had seemed like a reasonable approach to solve a budgetary issue while granting full access for the remaining days. Perhaps a self-appointed citizens advisory committee could manage to agree on that?

Missing from this conversation is any hint of what we're willing to give up in return for greater winter access. IMO, just start ticketing people for staying late--problem solved. But perhaps the positive example of Hurricane ridge cited by Jake is more to the group's liking?

The picture gradually being painted here of the NPS is one of an agency more comfortable managing the Washington Monument--where they don't spend a single dollar on snow plowing. I think this means that additional monetary or sweat equity contributions are needed from local citizens who wish to travel unrestricted on Mount Rainier in the dead of winter.

FWIW, IMHO squeezing agency budgets, treating employees poorly (not adhering to pay legislation), and demeaning gov't overall has led to the desired dysfunction whether it be the USPS (having to pay for retirement etc. 75 years into the future), the USFS (NW Forest Pass, because Murkowski et al. didn't believe recreation was in high demand), or the NPS which now is reliant on its truly impressive volunteer programs to conduct core missions.

I strongly disagree that the 2 day/wk closure was a good thing and I argued here against it.  Two automatic days of closure leads to 4-5 days due to weather and equipment malfunction and loss of recreational opportunity, increased crowding on weekends, and negative economic impacts on gateway communities--indeed argues against having anything but a skeleton workforce during the winter (and saves very little money).  Midweek closure is a major step toward winter closure.

"Missing from this conversation is any hint of what we're willing to give up in return for greater winter access.  IMO, just start ticketing people for staying late--problem solved.  But perhaps the positive example of Hurricane ridge cited by Jake is more to the group's liking?"

What are we willing to give up?  $4 billion in tanks to Egypt that were buried in the desert because they have more tanks than they can use?  There are lots we can give up to contribute more to the public good.

IIRC, even after nonprofits raised money to keep the road open it was closed anyway. 

"The picture gradually being painted here of the NPS is one of an agency more comfortable managing the Washington Monument--where they don't spend a single dollar on snow plowing.  I think this means that additional monetary or sweat equity contributions are needed from local citizens who wish to travel unrestricted on Mount Rainier in the dead of winter. "

Or it is a matter of national priorities, tax policy, and park priorities:  how much is lost by making every holiday weekend a free weekend?  by giving all active duty military and their family members free annual passes?  by giving all 4th graders and their family member free annual passes?  by designating new national monuments (and keep open poorly visited monuments and parks) without providing adequate funding for management of even the most visited parks.

Oh, and entrance fees are going up nearly 50% "to pay for the NPS centennial celebration."

There are a lot more serious problems at MRNP than 9-5 winter hours that are not being funded.  Addressing the problems with the Tahoma Creek-Nisqually River confluence that has real potential for closing the park for a year or more and other related river problems are just one area.  The confluence solution might cost as much as the repaving of the road to Paradise.

... I think this means that additional monetary or sweat equity contributions are needed from local citizens who wish to travel unrestricted on Mount Rainier in the dead of winter.   

Note that winter recreationists have developed the largest non-profit cross-country ski area in WWA (50 miles of trail) and probably beyond in the Mt. Tahoma Trails Association just outside the park on WA DNR, Industrial forest lands, and Nisqually Land Trust lands--none of which have the same mandates to provide recreation that National Parks and National Forests do.  The Park and the National Forest deigned to participate due to liability and lack of funds.   Members pay dues, spend time training and then serve on ski patrol (65 or so patrollers IIRC), do trail maintenance, bought snowmobiles and snow cats for grooming trails, built 3 huts and yurt for overnight stays and day visitation, do the plowing of the roads in conjuntion with the Sno-Park program (Snow park permits are required in the winter and Discovery Passes in the summer), and write grants for money and providing matching funds in terms of donated labor and materials; local businesses and philanthropists also donate money.

I don't think the park will let volunteers plow roads, act as LEOs, or collect money at the gate.  The Washinton Ski Club does the Nordic Patrol.

Focus, focus, focus.

The good news is, we're getting exactly what we deserve right now. If we want something better, we're going to have to decide what that is.

So what happens if you are late due to unforeseen circumstances? I.e. A group injury, lost in a whiteout, equipment malfunction/breakage, etc. Obviously it's our responsibility to be smart and responsible in the mountains, but shit does happen. Are you automatically ticketed because your buddy sprained his ankle at 230 pm and you don't make it to the gate until 530?

Has anyone actually recieved such a ticket?

Focus, focus, focus.

The good news is, we're getting exactly what we deserve right now.  If we want something better, we're going to have to decide what that is.

agreed 100%
was hassled by a woman ranger on how to properly evaluate the depth of snow for camping. apparently shoveling is a no go..one should gently probe instead. i thought she was joking but...there is no joking at mrnp after five.

its high time for a concentrated community effort.

What is interesting is some rangers are easy going about it but others are nasty about the whole thing. Here is what they should do.

1) Put a one way direction grate like in a parking garage to prevent people going up after 5:00 PM. Then allowing people out and down. However, each driver should be given a flyer at entering stating: If you are not out after 5:00PM and you get stranded or need a two you stay stranded until the next day and you pay all the costs involved. This includes acts of nature such as avalanche etc.

2) There are ways to deal with their idiocy. You can opt and ski Van Trump, but this option is only good from about 1 March on when there are longer days.

Sounds to me like a lot of you are more upset about rudeness than gate policy. If you're going to focus, that might be a place to start.

So I strongly encourage anyone who got read the riot act at the gate or bull-horned in the Paradise lot in recent weeks to call and share. 360-569-6503.

Props Cascade Climber. Now, if everyone who experienced this, take the time to call or write Tracy.

As Andy says, is the rudeness really more objectionable than the gate policy? There are plenty of days in the winter that I would love to show up late but have to shine the whole idea, because the gate "might" be closed at 5 pm and I would still be on the mountain.

One good reason for showing up late is to find out if the gate's going to be open at all, prior to driving there.

Thought some might be interested in some ‘highlights’ from “Assessment Of Department of Interior Law Enforcement“ written by the DOI Inspector General’s Office in 2002, which I just finished plowing through.   It’s a ‘Secured’ .pdf shared by a FOIA recipient that I don’t know how to link (or even cut & paste), so you’ll just have to trust my transcription:

“In general, law enforcement at DOI is aptly described by the conclusion about NPS law enforcement: ‘“…a profusion of conditions and practices in search of a system.’"   (p.10)

"The NPS in particular, suffers from such extreme organizational dysfunction that none of the NPS officials interviewed during the course of this assessment were able to explain just how NPS special agents were supervised and managed."  (p.10)

“Although estimates put the cost for operation of law enforcement [Interior] Department-wide in excess of half a billion dollars, the Assessment Team found that Bureau law enforcement programs are wholly incapable of accurately accounting for the cost of their operations.”  (p. 16)   

“When asked, the Acting Chief of NPS Ranger Activities Division could not provide a breakdown of FY2000 funding totals by park.  According to the ‘NPS – Annual Law Enforcement Report’ for fiscal year 2000, the amount of actual law enforcement expenditures reported was …$28.6 million less than the reported funding level.  NPS officials could not explain nor do they have the expenditure information available to identify the difference.”  (p. 16)   

Apparently, nationwide NPS crime statistics are “…not worth the paper they are sent in on, according to a senior official.”   (p. 36)

Summarizing the 2002 conclusion:  No new issues were reported; the problems identified in all previous reports [going back decades] continue.  (p. 40)

I realize this is old news, but it does provide a peephole into a very non-transparent, almost cult-like bureaucracy with a strong resistance to change. 

I realize this is old news, but it does provide a peephole into a very non-transparent, almost cult-like bureaucracy with a strong resistance to change. 

My experience in the last seven years or so:

- They are well trained to say the "right" things. "Thank you so much for calling today. We really appreciate your input!"
- They are well conditioned to saying the "right" things and then proceeding to do whatever they want.
- They are very happy soliciting outside input only when it is absolutely required and then largely ignoring it and proceeding to do whatever they want. i.e. check the public input requirement box, then proceed as previously planned.
- They provide the appearance of openness but are adept and avoiding answering direct questions and have an endless list of official-sounding excuses for doing so. The infamous fireworks incident is a prime example.
- In direct contradiction to what they say, there is one set of rules that they apply to the general public, and another, less stringent, set that are applied to the guide services and staff.
- They are master victims of their own red tape; "We'd really like to change that, but we can't because of regulation CZ34.6.7.aaa. Gee, sorry." I have yet to talk to a single one who said something like that followed by, "...and we are working to change that."
- They will bend and respond to an organized effort to shine a light on this and other stuff, but it takes an *organized* effort and we (the people who venture into the Wilderness areas of the park) are not organized, nor do we present a particularly consistent message. The guide services are very organized and so get a ton of what they want, including this abominable and expensive rebuild of Camp Muir.
- The issues of accountability and cronyism go to the very top of the NPS. People that don't play by that set of crooked rules don't tend to get very far or get pigeon-holed. That Dave Uberuaga has been twice promoted since he was investigated for his real estate dealings with RMI et al...I cannot fathom this.

Mike G. tried to help the bc community before going rogue federal in dc.
gator, you gave it a good try, thanks for the rescue operation service you enacted during your stint with your park.
your friend from undergrad,
bobby

So it's probably safe to assume that no one here has either received a ticket, or heard of anyone else who has.

Hmmm...

I'm guessing at this point that their policy is to lecture, not ticket.

Ski on!! (and learn how to fake a look of concern and self disappointment)

Better to beg forgiveness than ask for permission.....

Got back to Paradise at 4:50 (not intentionally) yesterday with at least a dozen other cars still in the parking lot. Drove through the gate at 5:20, not a ranger in sight. Appears the phone calls last week helped.

Several cars on the Paradise lot webcam were unpacking at 9am this morning. 
A recent Van Trump TR mentioned being allowed through the gate early.   ???

Several cars on the Paradise lot webcam were unpacking at 9am this morning. 
A recent Van Trump TR mentioned being allowed through the gate early.   ???

Call and ask Tracy Swartout for an explanation. No one else is going to hold them accountable.

We can effect change there, but not solely by reporting things here.

360-569-6503

The TR comments [1] appear to have been a miscommunication about days of the week. Sounds like the gate opened early for everyone on Sunday.

Consistent gate openings (or, better, a plowed road and an open gate) are precisely what we as park visitors and citizens want. Holding rangers "accountable" with a phone call and a thank-you might be just the sort of thing that keeps the plows plowing and the gate open.

[1] www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboardi...ex.php?topic=33803.0

Extended gate hours starting this Saturday the 7th: www.nps.gov/mora/learn/news/conditions-march2015.htm

Extended hours...

... based in the shift to Daylight Savings Time, eh?