Forest Roads: The Future (MBSNF meetings)

Uberuaga nemesis Ron Judd on USFS road access; interesting comments:
seattletimes.com/html/pacificnw/20214185...iescover0811xml.html
Live chat on same topic:
blogs.seattletimes.com/today/2013/08/liv...d-areas-be-repaired/

Great article!

I have a little story to tell: about a week ago my wife and I were standing on top of Flower Dome (next to Buck Creek Pass) admiring the expansive view from the glacial headwaters of the Suiattle River to the deep valley far to the west. The only other person up there, a fit but older backpacker, started talking to us. After some prattle it was clear that he was deeply involved in local recreation and conservation groups, and that he had a lot of great stories. He was also clearly one of the "Golden Lions" mentioned in the article. I mentioned the only other time I had made it into the Glacier Peak Wilderness was in the '90's via Suiattle Pass, Miners Ridge, and out the Suiattle trailhead. We got to talking about how that trip is basically not possible anymore, and money and road issues. Before we parted ways he said, "you know, one of the things we never envisioned when we were fighting big timber companies back in the day was the unintended consequences of winning.....we took the road network for granted."

That is a very well written, cogent article.  The only mis-stated point I could see is the labeling of the anti-access groups as "closed to everyone but us"; certainly some of the group are exceptionally fit with lots of time and might not mind hiking an extra 13 miles :, but, IMHO, many of the group are "armchair" wilderness devotees who simply love the thought of very large areas truly inaccessible to people.  Some, if not many, of these also believe there is no place in "nature" for people--that people, by their very presence destroy nature.  This belief system is quite common (but far from universal)  among "conservationists" and academics in the field of Conservation Biology (some leading figures have suggested moving all the people out of the greater PNW), but, as the article implies, is quite at odds with the philosophies of those who conceived of, and fought to establish national parks and wildernesses.

Great article!

... one of the "Golden Lions" ... said, "you know, one of the things we never envisioned when we were fighting big timber companies back in the day was the unintended consequences of winning.....we took the road network for granted." 

The timber voices warning about loss of access with loss of timber harvests (and even retaliation in the form of curtailment of recreational access) were indeed barely heard above the clamor for reform of the environmentally destructive timber program. The Chief of the Forest Service at the time of greatest harvest later said something like "Any fool could have calculated on the back of a napkin that we were overharvesting [in violation of the National Forest Management Act and the earlier Multiple Use Sustained Yield Act]."

Congress set the harvest limits (and, in the case of a good proportion of the Olympic NF, exceedingly extravagantly devastatingly high harvest limits on the Shelton Sustained Yield Unit) and USFS managers worked hard to meet them. When the disastrous cumulative effects started to become apparent and conservationists started objecting, they were routinely deceived by senior FS administrators and hand-shake agreements violated. This led then to litigation and development of a cadre of analysts who were more technically competent in NEPA and, sometimes, in forest management and forest ecology than the FS staffs. What should have been a consensus to follow the law devolved into fierce battles and finally the Clinton summit in Portland, and the subsequent exceedingly expensive and frought-with-problems NW Forest Plan; the battle-hardened advocates on both sides are still alive and well today.

I believe at least some of the resistance to repair and maintenance of any FS roads is based on the belief that as soon as the road is repaired the FS will begin logging old growth or logging in the wilderness.

It will be critical to quantify the present and future monetary impacts of non-motorized recreation in these regions wher FS road closures are impacting access. As this past weekend's rains demonstrated, maintaining FS and even WADOT roads is an expensive ongoing process. Without reasonable access, winter or summer, the public's interest in a distant place, whether Wilderness or not, will wane and the demand for funding will continue its downward spiral.

Access to the woods has been the foundation of the American outdoor experience. In a landscape composed of such vastness, well considered access is important. The Wilderness areas were planned with these access points serviced with the roads in question as a resource; should those roads be permanently closed, those Wilderness areas' status should be reconsidered...

Uberuaga nemesis Ron Judd on USFS road access; interesting comments:
seattletimes.com/html/pacificnw/20214185...iescover0811xml.html
Live chat on same topic:
blogs.seattletimes.com/today/2013/08/liv...d-areas-be-repaired/

Thanks! The article rambles a bit, but the territory it covers is worth the read.

Without reasonable access, winter or summer, the public's interest in a distant place, whether Wilderness or not, will wane and the demand for funding will continue its downward spiral.

Green bonding, man.  Ira Spring was right.  Harvey Manning was wrong.

Without reasonable access to wilderness (and that means the good stuff, not just the brushy outskirts) public support for wilderness will wither.

The Wilderness Watch notion that a overgrown road is as good as a mountain meadow, as long as they're both "wilderness," is foolish.

We've been blessed with a marvelous balance between remoteness and access in Northwest for the past few decades.

Preserving the balance is our generation's challenge.

We've been blessed with a marvelous balance between remoteness and access in Northwest for the past few decades.

Preserving the balance is our generation's challenge.

Well said! I'm in agreement here. I hope to play a role here for myself and my children after me.

NF Roads Public Meeting - Tuesday, Sept. 10, 5:30 pm, Bellingham Public Library

The Bellingham meeting was last night and was well attended. My take-away from the meeting is that the expected reductions in funding are huge, that the access we currently have will be far different in the next decade, and that places many of us currently use will be hard to reach as the approaches become either abandoned or closed.

There is no current discussion regarding winter travel management tied to this process so entering comments via email or in the MBSNF roads blog will be important.

T-man

Discouraging.

..sigh..

... that said, the FS is truly seeking input and as skiers we have lots of ideas, expertise, and experience to add to the discussion.  The heavily traveled areas will likely maintain road networks, but looking through the lens of winter access, some areas will be better from a maintenance perspective than others. 

Letting your Congressional Rep or Senator is important.

Be creative and throw it out there...

Green bonding, man.  Ira Spring was right.  Harvey Manning was wrong.

Without reasonable access to wilderness (and that means the good stuff, not just the brushy outskirts) public support for wilderness will wither.

The Wilderness Watch notion that a overgrown road is as good as a mountain meadow, as long as they're both "wilderness," is foolish.

We've been blessed with a marvelous balance between remoteness and access in Northwest for the past few decades.

Preserving the balance is our generation's challenge.

wisdom..

I heard today that the Winter Travel Management Plan will be developed as a later phase of the planning process and not part of this road closure plan.

Without laying out winter access, the choices for road closure are going to not reflect the needs of winter users.

I will find out more, but this seems to create a flawed road closure process...

I heard today that the Winter Travel Management Plan will be developed as a later phase of the planning process and not part of this road closure plan.

Without laying out winter access, the choices for road closure are going to not reflect the needs of winter users.

I will find out more, but this seems to create a flawed road closure process...

Now there's a shock! : Bureaucrats!!... When the world ends all that will be left are cockroaches and bureaucrats, both scavenging off the remains of those that actually created or did anything.

Truly gifted and driven people do not enter these government agencies and as a result they become the depository of mediocrity and those that like the system and hence the system perpetuates and becomes an end to itself.

The future lies with private initiatives by driven people and you can write as many letters and attend as many meetings as you want in the faint hope that change will occur. It will all be in vain and you are wasting your time even talking to them.

Revolution does not occur in the meeting rooms of bureaucrats...it occurs on the front lines and the streets!  Tear down the rancid nests these bureaucrats frequent. Until that occurs you are merely paying lip service and justifying their existence.

phhhheeeew..... I feel better now ! Bring me my meds sweetheart! STAT.

Now there's a shock! : Bureaucrats!!... When the world ends all that will be left are cockroaches and bureaucrats, both scavenging off the remains of those that actually created or did anything.

Truly gifted and driven people do not enter these government agencies and as a result they become the depository of mediocrity and those that like the system and hence the system perpetuates and becomes an end to itself.

The future lies with private initiatives by driven people and you can write as many letters and attend as many meetings as you want in the faint hope that change will occur. It will all be in vain and you are wasting your time even talking to them.

Revolution does not occur in the meeting rooms of bureaucrats...it occurs on the front lines and the streets!  Tear down the rancid nests these bureaucrats frequent. Until that occurs you are merely paying lip service and justifying their existence.

phhhheeeew..... I feel better now ! Bring me my meds sweetheart! STAT.

Well Scotsman, until the revolution happens, I intend to get several decades of good climbing, hiking, running, and skiing in these hills, and will encourage others to help shape a workable solution from perspectives that reflect the mentioned activities.

You say you want a revolution... well you know... we all want to change the world...

Cheers!

H'mm the Washington Trails Association (WTA.ORG) was formed to deal with cutbacks in Forest Service trail maintenance, perhaps we now need to form the WFRA Washington Forest Road Association to maintain forest roads and access.

H'mm the Washington Trails Association (WTA.ORG) was formed to deal with cutbacks in Forest Service trail maintenance, perhaps we now need to form the WFRA Washington  Forest Road Association  to maintain forest roads and access.

I'd send a check and donate some time. At a minimum it'd be nice to have a website or blog that reports on developments related to access.

Now there's a shock! : Bureaucrats!!... When the world ends all that will be left are cockroaches and bureaucrats, both scavenging off the remains of those that actually created or did anything.

Truly gifted and driven people do not enter these government agencies and as a result they become the depository of mediocrity and those that like the system and hence the system perpetuates and becomes an end to itself.

The future lies with private initiatives by driven people and you can write as many letters and attend as many meetings as you want in the faint hope that change will occur. It will all be in vain and you are wasting your time even talking to them.

Revolution does not occur in the meeting rooms of bureaucrats...it occurs on the front lines and the streets!  Tear down the rancid nests these bureaucrats frequent. Until that occurs you are merely paying lip service and justifying their existence.

phhhheeeew..... I feel better now ! Bring me my meds sweetheart! STAT.

We could form the NR(oad)A! Buy roads before the Government Tries to take them away from you! Access is a right!

Thank you T. Eastman for the reports!  I tend to agree with Scotsman about the futility of letters to Congress or the public meeting process.  The latter probably wouldn't be held at all if they were not legally required and the bureaucrats almost always end up doing what they want to anyway.

I like the idea of volunteer road maintenance groups, but suspect land managers would be concerned about safety and general loss of (the illusion of) control.  Most of them in my experience are frustrated control freaks.  And Scotsman is right about their woeful mediocrity!

Another small form of 'private initiative' is to educate oneself and circle of friends about the deteriorating access situation on our public lands and the frequent unaccountability of federal land managers. The tiny number of climbers and backcountry skiers will have little impact without developing many outside allies.  Each of us must enlist a couple others in the public lands access cause, and hope they in turn do the same.  One person's pointless Internet bitching is another's long-term educational endeavor.

The prospect for future USFS road access indeed sounds gloomy, but on a brighter note, at least we won't be paying 160 people to keep gates locked on roads they have to plow anyway, as here at Mount Rainier.

where's wmd, err... i mean wmc, when you need him..

As if the world isn't going to hell in a handbasket as it is, this is truly depressing news. Well to Scotsman and Andrew's sentiment, I suppose we will be looking forward to climbs from near sea level with marathon approaches. Time to get in contact with those docs of Armstrong that will prescribe HGH, EPO or some other performance enhancers for the big slog!

Perhaps something along these lines: www.ffpu.org/

Please note, while I have described a potentially bleak picture, there seems to be an honest appeal to gain information from users by the MBSNF for the purpose of developing the best possible outcomes.

Those outcomes do depend on the input gained from various users and user groups.  What does appear to be important is that the more input that is received from individuals, the less input from single interest groups would be weighted.  This is not to say that those groups will not exert influence, but the statistical input from individuals will play a significant role.

All us folks in TAYville have a wealth of experience in many of the elements being considered in this information gathering phase, we should not let that experience be wasted by not stepping up to the plate and contributing.

Fact: the MBSNF wants data...
Fact: the funds for road maintenance are shrinking...
Fact: TAY skiers have loads of experience to direct towards MBSNF road planning...
Fact: TAY skiers will go batshit-crazy if they lose access!
Assumption: TAY skiers will tip the scales for winter access!

Todd