No skiing below Pebble Creek

I sent a comment to OhRanger.

One potential issue that seems legit: you know how when you are skiing down snowfields that "almost" connect and you are forced to either all-terrain ski, or even de-ski and hike a few feet, to link up between snowfields? In a very high use area, this could be harmful to fragile plants. Also, if viewed by hikers, this activity could set a bad precedent. So I guess I think the regulation is ridiculous if continuous skiing is available, or if the link-ups only involve trail, but perhaps has some merit to minimize off-trail contact of boots or skiis with dirt/rock/plants.

I've been thinking about this thread and feeling a bit uneasy and so I sat down today and decided to try and educate myself on the issues rather than just rant and rave(  trying to be mature is a so much more work, and being immature is so much more fun).

I found the NPS plan for the park on-line and printed and started reading all 450 pages. It's a difficult read as it's laid out kinda funny but I started plowing though it. It talks about shuttle buses, west side road, paradise etc etc. It's all there.

Skiing is mentioned frequently and always coupled with snowshoeing and snowboarding. It is usually referred to as cross-country skiing and is ALWAYS talked about as a WINTER activity. There is even a paragraph where somebody proposes banning snowboarding as being inappropriate for the park but that is quickly discarded and there is no mention of skiing in the same context.

That's when it struck me that neither the NPS or ourselves could have imagined the growth and direction the sport we call backcountry skiing has developed and how we have even promoted it as a YEAR ROUND activity. No wonder conflict exists. Neither we nor the NPs has caught up how our sport has developed from the concept of  winter cross-country skiing to year round back-country and ski mountaineering on high performance technical gear.

This prompted me to think about what I do ,and my code of ethics. The question I asked myself was this. It's spring, Nisqually chute has corn. There is no snow until above Pan point. I hike on the trail carrying skis to Pebble Creek. I skin to the top of the chute, I ski the chute but o get back to Glacier Vista I have to hike through an area of sub-alpine flowers to get back to the Glacier Vista trail. Acceptable or not??? Here's another thought producer. Ten years from now, extreme sledding has become the passion. Hundreds of people converge on Paradise in the spring and summer. High performance sleds with steering mechanisms are on sale by Black Diamond and the sport is easy to learn. People are wandering all over the park dragging sleds to get to ribbons of snow. Acceptable or not????

Back-country skiers ( with exceptions of course ) behave differently from climbers. climbers will take the easy marked trails to permanent snow and then start their ascent. Skiers will leave the trial to go to a bowl or ribbon of skiable snow that climbers will normally never go to.

I guess I discovered that the issue for me is more complicated than I thought and I think both skiers and the NPS haven't caught up with the issues that year round and certainly extended season skiing is going to produce.

I am still deeply suspicious of other parts of the report especially the crystal boundary issue. It drones on about how development at Crystal will promote more skiers being visible on the ridge lines and skiing into the park and destroying the visitors wilderness experience. It then goes on to say that in winter there is nobody out there as  the roads are all closed. I still suspect it has something to do with the park residences in that area or else a political play to get the Forest Service to do a land swap.

That being said, I recommend you read it. It's making me think about some of my past positions.

I would also like to say I was pretty hard on Skipole and although I still have issues with his/her tone and delivery, I think it takes cojones to do what he/she did in posting what he/she thought important and take the knocks that followed and I admire that.

MRNP has quite a history of struggling with/against skiers...   

Mt. Rainer Administrative History:
www.nps.gov/archive/mora/adhi/adhit.htm

Especially: XIV. THE PROBLEM OF WINTER USE

....In the decade and a half following World War II, the NPS wrestled with the problem of winter use at Mount Rainier National Park. The heart of the problem was this: to what extent should skiers shape the physical development and budget priorities of the national park? The problem concerned several other national parks as well--notably the California parks--but nowhere was the situation more vexing than at Mount Rainier.....

They felt that they could get out of the ski business with the development of ski resorts in Washington. Lots of mention of cross country skiers... it seems they still don't understand Alpine Touring.... (my opinion)

Great post Scotsman.  I am regretting my earlier comments, I was out of line.

Ultimately instead of complaining about over-regulation I could easily choose to go to a less-regulated area or accept the rules.  There's no argument I can make that fragile meadows should be trampled.

Maybe it was the anonymity that bothered me?  In any case skipole I am sorry.  

I agree with Ron that Scotsman would be the perfect Acting Spokesman until an advocacy group can get better organized. I was especially impressed at his restraint in not mentioning his higher duty on the weekend of the ‘Sunrise Snub’. We need someone who can call BS when necessary and who won’t be co-opted. Maybe he’d reconsider if I offered to help with the scut-work behind the scenes? Lodging in Ashford on powder weekends?

His list of concerns is a great starting point, but I think the emphasis regarding Paradise should be on speeding up the ever-slower winter gate opening. If the Park Service could accomplish that, I think it would show they were serious about serving winter visitors better and calm fears of total winter closures.

During the world-record snow years of the early 70’s, I estimated that the average plowing time required was about one hour past 8AM for every six inches of new snow at Paradise. There were quite a few days, but never extended periods, when the road would not open. At that time the road crew was using mostly surplus plows and trucks from Bremerton that the Navy had given up on and the road foreman had the only four-wheel drive light vehicle in the Park. The Rangers drove 2WD GSA station wagons rigged as ambulances and chained-up just like the public.

In recent years, I’ve been forced to revise my estimates. Despite less snow, newer & more powerful equipment, and a fleet of SUVs that would make a Saudi prince blush, about one hour past 8 for every three inches of new snow seems the current norm, and non-openings and extended closures are much more common.

Since I’ve indulged myself in a number of criticisms of the National Park Service, I feel compelled to offer the following:

SOME SUGGESTIONS FOR IMPROVING PARADISE WINTER OPERATIONS

CONTINUE RECENT IMPROVEMENTS IN PHONE MESSAGE. For years, this was really frustrating because of no updates or updates that didn’t mention what day they were recorded. These problems have been corrected. Even the new estimated opening time is fairly reliable. Hats off to whoever was responsible. It would be convenient for us locals if the message could be updated when the Paradise gate actually opens. A real improvement would be to make the open/no open decision sooner, so that people could make alternate plans before wasting most of the day waiting for the gate. The weather phone message offers ‘current conditions’, but is really just a summary of the generally available forecast. Perhaps the standard script could refer callers to the webcams, or how hard is it to just update the weather conditions a few times a day? At least the recording no longer prattles on about the total snow amount compared to the previous year. More useful to those without web access would be the amount of new snow overnight & perhaps a wind summary, since they affect trip choice, trail breaking difficulty, time management, and avalanche hazard. I don’t understand why the current avalanche hazard is not on the recording each winter day.

START SNOW REMOVAL EARLIER on weekends and holidays. Model A’s kept the road plowed almost to Narada by working all night. Starting a couple hours earlier would give backcountry travelers more safety cushion on short winter days.

PARTIAL OPENINGS ON WEEKDAYS. In the seventies, the Paradise gate was opened when the lower (JVC) lot was cleared, unless there were too many cars waiting in Longmire. A volunteer (often me) would keep people away from the plows while the upper lot was finished. As long as the parking capacity is not exceeded, I don’t see why it can’t be SOP that the road is opened to Cougar Rock, Glacier Bridge, Narada and the lower Paradise lot as the plows reach them. All it would take is a few cones & barricades. It looks like some of the so-called Rangers could use a little exercise getting in out of their vehicles more often anyway.

COUNT VEHICLES AT THE ENTRANCE ON BUSY DAYS with late openings. Hold vehicles there until the Paradise gate opens when parking places in Longmire and the lower turnouts are full. Sooner or later, a TV crew is going to air news footage of the annual holiday gridlock semi-riot to the Park’s considerable embarrassment, or at least I hope so. Speaking of Longmire gridlock, why not have a red/green light on the museum and Inn (or even a semaphore signal) to show the gate status and reduce the cruising and premature lineups?

INSTALL A WINTER EMERGENCY PHONE AT NARADA comfort station. This could make a real difference in case of a Mazama or Tatoosh accident.

MARK THE DOWNHILL LANE WHEN THE CHAINUP LOCATION CHANGES. A simple portable sign: “End Chain Requirement” would save chains, tires, gas and the pavement.

USE THE GUIDED SNOWSHOE WALKS TO EDUCATE VISITORS about potential conflicts such as walking/webbing in XC ski tracks. At Olympic NP there are small, simple signs at the parking lot: “Skiers & snowshoers please make separate tracks”.

HAVE A CHILDREN’S SNOW PLAY AT COUGAR ROCK OR LONGMIRE CG. Why not store a heap of gravel before it snows or use the plows to build a small sliding hill so kids wouldn’t be so disappointed if Paradise couldn’t be opened? A lot of parents might appreciate not having to brave the drive to Paradise as well. Of course, this would require a couple portable toilets on a low trailer, but the Park should already have that setup. They could put them on the Westside Road in the summer or developed areas in an emergency.

LET STEVENS CANYON AND THE VALLEY ROAD MELT OUT NATURALLY. Or at least delay the premature plowing of recent years. Besides saving dozens of more trees from being snapped off by bulldozers, the Park could use the equipment time and money saved to open Cayuse and Sunrise sooner.

EXPLORE COOPERATIVE AGREEMENTS WITH THE STATE AND USFS to try to keep Skate Creek road open as much as possible in winter. Most of the road is lower than Longmire and is on the books as a future State highway. This would be a PR coup for the Park and a real boost for local businesses. With a shorter route to White Pass, snowplayers would have another option if the Park was unable to open Paradise and snowmobilers could better access their traditional terrain in the years of high snowline that seem to be in our future.

WHAT THE HEY; MIGHT AS WELL SHOOT FOR THE MOON…
Eliminate the NPS Regional Offices; retire the landscape architects, assistant superintendents, project coordinators, contracting officers and all the other paraphernalia of development. As Scotsman said, learn to deal with limited resources, especially when visitation has been declining since the 90’s. Use the savings to retain the seasonal backcountry rangers and trail crew normally cut first in budgetary hard times. There might even be enough left over to buy a couple more plows and add a trained avalanche specialist to the Park’s stable of scientists.


Please excuse this long post, but this is the most hopeful thread in my brief time on this site. Others must have better ideas; let’s hear them! Poor skipole was just trying to do his/her duty, but has done all of us a favor. Thanks.

I agree with Ron that Scotsman would be the perfect Acting Spokesman until an advocacy group can get better organized. I was especially impressed at his restraint in not mentioning his higher duty on the weekend of the ‘Sunrise Snub’. We need someone who can call BS when necessary and who won’t be co-opted. Maybe he’d reconsider if I offered to help with the scut-work behind the scenes? Lodging in Ashford on powder weekends?

There you go, Scotty.  Gary has already volunteered to help and even provide you with an "Ashford headquarters"; I will help you and I'll bet there is a plethora of other folks that would help as long as they didn't have to be point man. I wouldn't even be surprised if Skipole would help, considering your recent commendable, study/thought provoked, well crafted, even handed and apologetic post above (as long as you didn't continue to get her/his screen handle wrong ).
Besides, you're already "kind of" leading the charge as it is.  The only thing left is for you and Gary to go sit down with the super (or his designee) and offer some suggestions.

Gary, GREAT suggestions!!

Ron thanks , but I am not trying to be coy like some Vice Presidential candidate wanting the nomination but pretending not to. I'll help but I'm NOT the right person for the job. My views are too extreme and although moderated occasionally by infrequent attacks of maturity, my knowledge base of the issues is not sufficient.

Larry Trotter picked up on what I think is paramount to any conversation with the NPS and my point in my previous post in that the NPS (especially when you read their plan) just doesn't understand  extended season Alpine Touring.

Others are more knowledgeable. People like Joedebaker have been working on issues like this for years and where involved in the original fight over the Crystal Boundary. We need respected voices like that.  Picture this, unlighted cigarette in my mouth, creepy Scottish accent as snow bell calls it , says" OK Superintendent, lets cut the BS and talk turkey, dude" ;D

I do however think, now is the time to form a group to get ready to discuss issues with the NPS during the coming winter months when they will have more time. It would be a shame it we let the momentum slip and apathy take over. Maybe we should convene a meeting by invitation on this board to establish what the consensus IS on what we want to talk to the NPS about and see how many attend!
Want to take up this baton Gary, RonJ??

READ LARRY TROTTERS LINK to the history of skier/Park conflicts. It's amazing and if you think extended season Alpine Touring is guaranteed to be allowed in the park without advocacy on it's behalf, this history of Park /Sker conflict should  change your views.

Thanks for the information.
Do you have e-mail addresses for the following gentlemen you mention.
Steve Klump
Chuck Young
Dave Uberuaga
It's difficult to get through at times on the phone and the whole world seems to communicate by e-mail these days.
Thanks

All are in the format This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it., and this is true of most of us in the NPS directory. (In the case of a few names you have to decide between "Jim" or "James," and those with common names sometimes have the middle initial added. But all of the above names follow the standard format.)

Just FYI, even though it's sometimes hard to track them down, you'll probably get a more satisfying response if you call than if you e-mail.

Scotty - thanks for investigating this issue.

This prompted me to think about what I do ,and my code of ethics. The question I asked myself was this. It's spring, Nisqually chute has corn. There is no snow until above Pan point. I hike on the trail carrying skis to Pebble Creek. I skin to the top of the chute, I ski the chute but o get back to Glacier Vista I have to hike through an area of sub-alpine flowers to get back to the Glacier Vista trail. Acceptable or not???

Your question of ethics also applies to the Slush Cup on the Pinnacle snowfield.

A mathematical formula I think best illustrates my personal feelings on the slushcup

slushcup=women in cold water and teeshirts= too much fun therefore>ethics.

READ LARRY TROTTERS LINK to the history of skier/Park conflicts. It's amazing and if you think extended season Alpine Touring is guaranteed to be allowed in the park without advocacy on it's behalf, this history of Park/Skier conflict should change your views.

Here's the direct link to the administrative history chapter about skiing:

www.nps.gov/archive/mora/adhi/adhi14.htm

It's important to remember that this chapter describes a time when Mt Rainier was making the transition from being the premiere lift-served ski resort in Washington (in the 1930s) to being a place for dispersed and non-mechanized recreation in winter (today's situation). The lessons aren't a direct parallel to the present.

I think it's a good idea for skiers to make their interests known to the park service. Extended season skiing is not new at Mt Rainier. In the 1930 Mountaineer Annual, Bill Maxwell wrote an article about "Skiing Eight Months a Year" on Rainier and elsewhere. This article was quoted in Lou Dawson's Wild Snow book, where Maxwell writes about the "wild ecstasy of speed". Today, of course, we know that people ski twelve months a year. Here are a few notes from the article:

www.alpenglow.org/ski-history/notes/peri...ml#mtneer-a-1930-p53

Mountaineer Annual, 1930, p. 53, Maxwell, W.J., "Skiing Eight Months a Year"

The author observes that a few years earlier the Puget Sound skiing season ran from Christmas through Washington's Birthday, while now it extends from early November through late June. He describes tours done around Mt Rainier: Indian Henry's Hunting Ground, Cowlitz Rocks to the Paradise River, Pinnacle-Castle saddle, Camp Muir, Paradise to the Nisqually glacier snout, and from Steamboat Prow (Interglacier) to Storbo mining camp in Glacier basin. He also describes tours around Mt Baker: Table Mountain, Shuksan Arm, Lake Ann, Kulshan Ridge, Coleman Glacier, Chain Lakes and mentions the recent ski ascent of Baker itself. He includes a colorful description of the descent from Steamboat Prow and mentions that most of these trips have been done as a "week-end holiday." Quote: "The snow peaks of Washington offer an infinite variety of ski trips, that some day will lure to the Northwest skiers from distant places."

Thanks  Lowell as always for the excellent references.
Your point is well taken and it's not an exact parallel but I guess my point is that NPS policies change over time based upon what the public is perceived to want or what the NPS considers is causing  damage to the Park.

Sure extended season Alpine Touring or even all year skiing in the park is not new but not in the numbers that are presently doing it or the growth that is expected. Also bureaucracies by their very nature have a history of creating new rules all the time whose end result may or not be fully realized at the time.

I would refer you to your post about the ranger stopping GregSimon from building kickers. It seems a silly thing initially until you expand upon what that could mean or be further interpreted by the over zealous as your comments in that post correctly ,in my opinion, point out.

Thanks for your support on a group to talk to the NPS. You are recognised and respected leader in the backcountry skiing community. Want to volunteer?

Thanks for your support on a group to talk to the NPS. You are recognised and respected leader in the backcountry skiing community. Want to volunteer?

I'm willing to contribute as an advisor, but I'm not willing to lead the effort. I'm currently involved in something like eight projects as team leader, team member, or advisor, including a couple engineering projects that are my "real job." I don't feel able to take on more commitments right now.

I'm willing to contribute as an advisor, but I'm not willing to lead the effort.

I think any group would be well served to take you up on your offer of advisor . Now if we could only find a person willing to head up this thing and organize a meeting to kick it off.
Hello out there!

Others are more knowledgeable. People like Joedabaker have been working on issues like this for years and where involved in the original fight over the Crystal Boundary. We need respected voices like that.

Well, uh...Like, thanks, but I'm in agreement of the idea of a Skier Advocacy Group, but fundamentally I have problems with leading a consortium. IMHO the intent is right and should be pursued in some capacity, but an organization turns into it's own entity that always needs to be fueled and flows in other directions than the original purpose. There needs to be a clear definition of the goals and direction of the group as to keep the focus on Skier Advocacy pure and not get lead into other interests.
The success that we had on the Crystal Mountain boundary came from the fact that we (our small group) read the rules ands the park did not know their own rules. So long story short, we won because the park did not know their own rules.
From my experience and research there is a lot more than meets the eye down the road in the park. I read a 5 year plan a while back that MRNP had which would allow private vendors to operate in the park. Hiking guide services and others I can't quite remember. This got me thinking, Crystal's operations on the edge of the park are legal, but skiers entering the park jeopardize agreements for future contracted vendors in the park. Since Crystal is an outside vendor allowing (NOT ENCOURAGING THEM) skiers access inside the park in theory extends their boundary of the area. Therefore Crystal is theoretically benefiting from Government owned lands, and not having to pay fees to the park for their service. I wonder why the park is trying to close access??
The vendor service I talked about earlier is a win-win for the park as it offers more recreational services as long as the vendors stay within the park's guidelines. But the park benefits financially from the vendors and vistitors.
If Crystal skiers use the park from the lifts, MRNP vendors could rebuke and say how come Crystal is getting away with free access for their customers and ours have to pay? Good question?
So there is one of the underlying snakes not really reported to the public and one reason that the park has gone to so much effort to designate the adjacent park sections to Crystal as Pristine Wilderness. By rules of the park it is designed to reduce visitor numbers to that area of the park, because it is now "Pristine" and somewhere around 24 persons are allowed in the zone per day and no groups more than 12. Powder Mag article that covers some of the meeting HERE ,
This whole process has been well thought out by the park and very underhanded to undermine skier access in my opinion, they just missed on one thing the courage and tenacity of a few skiers to blow their plan out of the water. But it is good to know that the Park spent a ton of our money in attorney fees to fight us and ended up losing in the end.

So as long as the intentions of the Skier Advocacy Group is pure without extended agendas, stays focused on the issues and the rules, and not greedy I believe it will survive.

Great post Joe and I think very thought producing. It is also my belief that any skier advocacy group  should have a narrow focus and like you I would be worried about it having a tendency to try and address other social/economical issues or other park issues or freedom for Tibet etc.

I did some networking yesterday and had an e-mail conversation with a respected business man and outdoor access advocate, Mr Doug Walker. Doug has been involved in access issues for a while and is an avid mountaineer and backcountry skier and he and I skied the Nisqually chute together this year. I directed him to this thread and asked for advise.

His advise was to keep it a fairly narrow focus but advises that certain organizations such as the Access Fund can be helpful. He quoted a recent case where the Washington Climbers Coalition had some specific issue with the North Cascades National  Park and how by working with the Access Fund they where able, after a longish process to get what they wanted. He also stressed that diplomacy is required to make the process work.
Thanks Doug for the excellent advise.

I like Joe ,think the next step is to have a meeting with interested parties so see if we have a common focused voice and a consensus on what  our issues are, or if there is even enough interest and support which I am beginning to doubt frankly and I feel interest waning.Which is OK as well, if it's felt there's not a need, the people have spoken and it can't be forced.

Ps. The Crystal Boundary issue is not over, the NPS are just collecting data and preparing for their next attempt IMVHO.

I don't know if interest is wanning so much as it might just be on hold - waiting for the next step in these things can be very trying of one's patience - especially when we want some forward momentum!  After reading through Lowell's link , I was thinking maybe we need to open the discussion with various collegiate ski/outdoor clubs?  Open up the discussion a bit into their forums.  Not only can that generate interest into the MRNP concerns of our growing pastime, but college students are really good at thinking out of the box.  Sometimes they can be the momentum we need.  Like it was said before, right now is a good time to start this snowball pinwheeling...we have a bit of time before school begins again.  Possibly enough time to call school clubs or throw up some TAY posters on the campus highlighting this thread?  Just some ideas...

I like Joe ,think the next step is to have a meeting with interested parties so see if we have a common focused voice and a consensus on what  our issues are, or if there is even enough interest and support which I am beginning to doubt frankly and I feel interest waning.Which is OK as well, if it's felt there's not a need, the people have spoken and it can't be forced.

Ps.  The Crystal Boundary issue is not over, the NPS are just collecting data and preparing for their next attempt IMVHO.

I think your interest group is right here. You've already identified several issues of concern, such as:

1) Crystal boundary
2) Paradise Road in the winter, will it stay open in the future. etc, etc.
3) Sunrise next year

The first step to address any of these issues is research. That doesn't take much diplomacy (as long as you can ask questions in a civil tone ). If somebody who's interested in these issues would be willing to find out where the park service stands on these and report back to TAY, that would be a great first start. If diplomacy or political pressure was needed, that could come later and different people could take the lead. One step at a time.

I've taken part in several volunteer projects in the last few years and the only way I've seen them work is for somebody to take the lead. You can't force people to volunteer. It can be frustrating but it's actually a great reality check. If you can't get people to volunteer, it means that it's not very important to them.

Should have known that our Braveheart would be too sly to fall for the old powder weekend gambit, especially since I let slip how reluctant the King's men are to let us at it.   

As for the baton, or spear, or whatever it is we have here, I don’t mind carrying it awhile, or even sharpening it, but someone else is going to have to poke Uberalles with it.  I think they already raise the terror threat to orange when I pass thru the entrance station and I’d make Scotsman look like the Dali Lama in negotiations.    ;D

Thanks to Lowell and especially Joe for the reality checks.  I was unaware of the Crystal boundary details.

Top NPS brass lobbied against inclusion of NPS units as the Wilderness Act was being passed, but as Joe & acarey mentioned, they’ve learned to selectively use resource protection to further their agendas.  The Olympic Wilderness Management Plan has sat on the shelf, unapproved, for over a decade, while other NPS units copied it & approved their versions.  I believe The Wilderness Society even sued them over the delay, but they’re still stalling.

Joe’s comments on concessions in the Park really interested me.  Many on this side of the mountain feel that the mass transit provisions in the GMP and the recent delays implementing multiple guide services were more favoritism toward a politically well-connected concessionaire.  Concessions and development are two sides of the same coin in some ways.  If you want to know the priorities of NPS management, “follow the money”, as Deep Throat said.  The NPS’s parent Interior Dept has been mired in concession & conflict of interest scandals for years.  Those interested in the sacred cow NPS's history of corruption, malfeasence, and retaliation against critics should not miss these authors:

Micheal Frome,  “Regreening the National Park Service”
Carston Lien,     “Olympic Battleground”
Alston Chase,    “Playing God in Yellowstone”

In recent years, I’ve been forced to revise my estimates.  Despite less snow, newer & more powerful equipment, and a fleet of SUVs that would make a Saudi prince blush, about one hour past 8 for every three inches of new snow seems the current norm, and non-openings and extended closures are much more common.

Certainly distressing and disappointing, but furthermore, why is 8:00 the *earliest* the gate ever opens, even when forecast is totally clear and snow hasn't fallen in days? (I found that baffling when I was there in late October.)

Finally got around to putting down my wish list .
IT all boils down to access,access for backcountry skiing other snow sports and climbing.
1) continued year round Access to Paradise
2) Continued progress in early openings of Longmire gate and road info line .
3) Earliest possible openings of Sunrise ,Mowich ,Chinook pass and White River campground parking .I 'd rather have that then plowing Paradise Valley and Stevens Canyon road plowed so early . In fact it might be worth it for some of us to volunteer at Sunrise to help point out to skiers the best snow without violating the flora. Put tiolet paper in the traliered porta joins etc. Not to mention emergencys
4) on a bigger concept why not a yurt, or access to exiting stuctures for overnight winter stays. Reservations on a lottery system. Talk about good will eh? Rememember the Paradise lodge used to be open in the winter.
With the growth or you some might say the return to ski touring it would not be hard to imagine the Paradise lodge opened again. Perhaps it could be on limited basis?

Lastly Any group formed will have to work with the Park Staff , Elected reps ,Dept of the interior and lastly educate the public to support any changes. Don't forget many of the business's in Ashford and ,Enumclaw and Greenwater would be allies.

...why is 8:00 the *earliest* the gate ever opens, even when forecast is totally clear and snow hasn't fallen in days?  (I found that baffling when I was there in late October.)

Probably that's when the law enforcement ranger comes on duty.

Regarding your earlier question in Reply #24, I'd guess the hiker/skier ratio might approach 10/1 on the nicest corn weekends of May & June; probably more like 100/1 now?

Finally got around to putting down my wish list .
IT all boils down to access ... Rememember the Paradise  lodge used to be open in the winter.
...

I was amazed to learn from an old-timer that when there was a lift at Paradise there was also a smallish chalet/cabin type beer hall/hamburger restaurant with a wood stove and bunks in the basement that you could rent for $2/night and many of the volunteers/bc skiers that helped work the lift/tow rop during the day later skied at night.

Of course, it appears that was the 1st thing to go when the Jackson Visitor Center was planned/built.  What a wondrous thing that would be to have such a place at Paradise?  What if the association proposed here asked to be a concessionaire at Paradise to maintain such a nice little place (why not in lieu of the lame museum at the old guide house?).  It could be an living intrepretive museum, with old photos on the wall and recreating the glory days of paradise, when the park was a place for people who love the outdoors ... maybe being a concessionaire might help get the goals achieved ... or maybe a skiing guide service based in Ashford ... combined with a business that distributes the ashes of the dearly departed [ as some guide services do now surreptitioulsy] ... maybe if bcskiers.org became bcskiers.com then we could get in before the public and when the park was closed to the public, etc.

Probably that's when the law enforcement ranger comes on duty.

Based on my experienced as volunteer ski patroller at Paradise, I think it's something like that -- when I volunteer I get to listen in on Park Service radio chatter -- It's pretty amazing the kind of antics that the park staff has to deal with from "the general public", just on the road and in the parking lot. It's actually a fair amount of work. While "backcountry skiers" as a group might be sensible and self-reliant enough to drive the road to Paradise without getting into too/causing much trouble -- not so the general public. If they leave the gate open, but there is no one on duty patrolling the roads -- what to stop some yahoos from driving the road at reckless speeds or for that matter driving up the road at 2AM with a snowmobile trailer ?

Based on my experienced as volunteer ski patroller at Paradise, I think it's something like that -- when I volunteer I get to listen in on Park Service radio chatter -- It's pretty amazing the kind of antics that the park staff has to deal with from "the general public", just on the road and in the parking lot. It's actually a fair amount of work .....what to stop some yahoos from driving the road

I agreed with Randy that the park has it's hands full, but I feel, we as a skier community are reduced to "Yahoo Level" on the whole.
In order for the park to feel like they have some semblance of control over the mayhem that is happening on a daily basis (in the lots and trails close to the lots) they are establishing a line lowered to the lowest denominator of intelligence.
So the gate to Sunrise does not open early, not only because the facilities are unprepared, but they are afraid that the weather varies and some knucklehead is going to slide off the road on morning ice or late season snow fall. This is where the shuttle idea that the park promotes can be handy, open the area sooner, the park has one or two drivers in charge of hauling people up and down Sunrise until the road is deemed safe for Yahoo driving. Then shuttle service is offered to those who do not want to drive and open to those who wish to drive themselves. It can be suggested that off trail skiing on Burroughs is not permitted. There is no need have us TAYers handing out info in the parking lot when there is a perfectly informative ranger taking your money at the gate.

Paradise is quite a stretch of road and I have never been there in the Winter, but I assume the plowing would take some time given the limited pullout space and place to put the snow with the banks. Thus they would need to be plowing well into the night to prepare for opening.

Which brings up budget, budget , budget.
I had a formal meeting with Mr. Uberuagua, Mr. Nehring, snow parks, USFS Parks rep and local businesses and the Outing Ski Club last year about opening the road on 410 to the White River cutoff in the Winter. To cut this short it wound down to Mr Uberuagua diplomatically telling us great idea-no funding for help and plowing.
I appreciate the Superintendents time to listen to our needs, but there was mention in the meeting to maybe do something like we suggested to the Mowich road in the winter. I suspect that the Crystal Mountain issue was more at hand than the budget constraints answer we got, because why would you promote Mowich if you don't have the money for an already plowed road on 410?

And I add that the support of XC skiers would be helpful in our cause, while many would like to tour up in White River, Mowich and Chinook Pass in the winter. This is certainly not skate skiing, but anyone who has done any sort of XC skiing knows that there is a little trail breaking involved, but it would be nice to start from a point where there can be views and nicer snow quality(pack) rather than down low in the valleys where snow conditions are thinner and tend to be heavier/wetter.

I think that the Skiers Advocating for Snow Sports [Sliding?] all Year (with an uncapitalized "all" please) makes for a better acronym than SAG.

drC

SASSY, I like it!  SAG is pretty lame, even if appropriate for some of us.  Maybe we should have a naming contest?  I'll throw in the aforementioned powder weekend as a prize.